Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote: I really did used to believe exactly like you Ken- honestly, for over 40 years and it was difficult to even consider otherwise- but I have come to the conclusion that these assumptions are really the result of trying to understand this by Scripture alone, and the Church was never "Scripture Alone"- which is why in every single country where the Gospel was taken, infants & children were baptized, those born of Christian parents. The ancient faith has a much broader and deeper understanding of baptism and communion (Eucharist) and it seems obvious to me that all the other denominations are really guessing their way through this as best they can, and I can admit this- but if the Holy Spirit was guiding all these denominations they would surely be closer to practicing the same thing- it is more indicative of human reason, trying to understand it without the Holy Tradition of the Church- the pillar and ground of the Truth-
Talk about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. That is exactly what you are proposing.

Edited to add-
I do not believe in "Scripture Alone." I do believe in "Scripture Supreme" in the sense that oral tradition must be subservient to the plain teaching of Scripture.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:Orthodox teach the unborn go to Paradise, as well as infants that were not baptized...
At what age will an unbaptized child no longer go to Paradise?
1 yr? 5 yr? 12 yr? 15 yr?
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote: I really did used to believe exactly like you Ken- honestly, for over 40 years and it was difficult to even consider otherwise- but I have come to the conclusion that these assumptions are really the result of trying to understand this by Scripture alone, and the Church was never "Scripture Alone"- which is why in every single country where the Gospel was taken, infants & children were baptized, those born of Christian parents. The ancient faith has a much broader and deeper understanding of baptism and communion (Eucharist) and it seems obvious to me that all the other denominations are really guessing their way through this as best they can, and I can admit this- but if the Holy Spirit was guiding all these denominations they would surely be closer to practicing the same thing- it is more indicative of human reason, trying to understand it without the Holy Tradition of the Church- the pillar and ground of the Truth-
Talk about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. That is exactly what you are proposing.

Edited to add-
I do not believe in "Scripture Alone." I do believe in "Scripture Supreme" in the sense that oral tradition must be subservient to the plain teaching of Scripture.
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote: I really did used to believe exactly like you Ken- honestly, for over 40 years and it was difficult to even consider otherwise- but I have come to the conclusion that these assumptions are really the result of trying to understand this by Scripture alone, and the Church was never "Scripture Alone"- which is why in every single country where the Gospel was taken, infants & children were baptized, those born of Christian parents. The ancient faith has a much broader and deeper understanding of baptism and communion (Eucharist) and it seems obvious to me that all the other denominations are really guessing their way through this as best they can, and I can admit this- but if the Holy Spirit was guiding all these denominations they would surely be closer to practicing the same thing- it is more indicative of human reason, trying to understand it without the Holy Tradition of the Church- the pillar and ground of the Truth-
Talk about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. That is exactly what you are proposing.

Edited to add-
I do not believe in "Scripture Alone." I do believe in "Scripture Supreme" in the sense that oral tradition must be subservient to the plain teaching of Scripture.
Not if the men were the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit-

If you are going by the Supremacy of Scripture on this matter- then my assumption should be, that as soon as a person makes a confession of their belief in Christ, and is repentant, that they are immediately baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit- that is what Scripture teaches. Where does it teach any kind of delay? Might we say any delay which didn't happen in the early church, would be a doctrine of man?
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:Orthodox teach the unborn go to Paradise, as well as infants that were not baptized...
At what age will an unbaptized child no longer go to Paradise?
1 yr? 5 yr? 12 yr? 15 yr?
That is in God's hands, to judge-
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

See from reading this, I feel like there are attacks on early Church traditions, but it is acceptable to start each denominations own traditions but that seems somewhat hypocritical to me, to cast the ancient church as traditions of men (even if the Holy Spirit was guiding them) and then we create many of our own traditions and that is okay? Do we not see a little hypocrisy in this?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:Orthodox teach the unborn go to Paradise, as well as infants that were not baptized...
At what age will an unbaptized child no longer go to Paradise?
1 yr? 5 yr? 12 yr? 15 yr?
That is in God's hands, to judge-
What does the OE church teach will happen to a 15 year old who dies not having believed or been baptized?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:See from reading this, I feel like there are attacks on early Church traditions, but it is acceptable to start each denominations own traditions but that seems somewhat hypocritical to me, to cast the ancient church as traditions of men (even if the Holy Spirit was guiding them) and then we create many of our own traditions and that is okay? Do we not see a little hypocrisy in this?
No. You have been saying that tradition should over-rule what the Bible says. You say that because we have a written record from 100 years after the apostles time claiming that they taught infant baptism, we should ignore what the Bible says about baptism being tied to repentance and belief and instead baptize infants. You are teaching these traditions as doctrine. That's a lot different from developing traditions which help us to better obey what the Bible actually says, and being willing to modify those traditions when necessary due to changing conditions.
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:See from reading this, I feel like there are attacks on early Church traditions, but it is acceptable to start each denominations own traditions but that seems somewhat hypocritical to me, to cast the ancient church as traditions of men (even if the Holy Spirit was guiding them) and then we create many of our own traditions and that is okay? Do we not see a little hypocrisy in this?
No. You have been saying that tradition should over-rule what the Bible says. You say that because we have a written record from 100 years after the apostles time claiming that they taught infant baptism, we should ignore what the Bible says about baptism being tied to repentance and belief and instead baptize infants. You are teaching these traditions as doctrine. That's a lot different from developing traditions which help us to better obey what the Bible actually says, and being willing to modify those traditions when necessary due to changing conditions.
For adults, it is tied to belief and repentance- for the babies of adults, they were not separated out and left outside the Church- they were baptized and became part of the Church, able to receive 'weekly' communion when they could- they were in God's kingdom, raised in the fear and nurture of the Lord- 'clean and holy' (ESV has a different translation but I don't discard the distinction made earlier, because it is supported that way by tradition) as Scripture said before of children of a Believing parent. See to those who tie Scripture and Holy tradition hand in hand, they are not 'opposed' to each other- they may understand more, and were guided by the Holy Spirit and Apostolic teaching handed down- I understand there were periods of time when certain people influenced the Church to question infant baptism, based on certain people who believed that one can lose salvation if they sin after their baptism, but that was not the universal teaching of the Church. But during those periods where there was that influence, it was not uncommon to delay baptism-
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote: At what age will an unbaptized child no longer go to Paradise?
1 yr? 5 yr? 12 yr? 15 yr?
That is in God's hands, to judge-
What does the OE church teach will happen to a 15 year old who dies not having believed or been baptized?
Do you mean if they 'rejected' the Gospel? Or simply that they never heard it (ignorant of it?)
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