Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Valerie, does the EO have something similar to the Catholic confirmation where, if I understand it correctly, a babies baptism is confirmed at an older age by their confession of faith ? Again, if I understand this correctly, a babies baptism is a state of regeneration that once understood when a child can grasp what Christ has done, confirms their regenerated state to walk in this newness of life. I may not have this correct and welcome yours and/or others help as I am too lazy at the moment to look this up. :oops:
I don't think the Orthodox have "Confirmation" nor "First Communion" with their baptized children. When a child is baptized, like the adult, they are prayed to receive the Holy Spirit- and I don't fully understand regeneration, but I do know that it is more than symbolic- There is actually something about the prayers, the water, the anointing, etc- where grace is imparted (there are examples of 'water' healings in the Old Testament and New. So somehow it seems all this works together. But the child is raised as a Christian, from that that point on, not as an unbeliever, and they are raised as a child of God from what I understand- Jesus did remark about the faith of a child, and to such is the kingdom of Heaven- so to think that they cannot have faith really ignores Jesus words about it, don't you think?
Interesting topic and enjoying the discussion.

When Jesus remarked about the faith of a child, I believe He was saying that unless we have a child like faith that fully abandons our own saving ability and fully trusts on God to save us, we cannot be saved. Like when a child standing on the edge of a pool, jumps into the arms of a parent in the pool, fully trusting the parent to save them from drowning. If we hang unto a belief that somehow we are part of salvation beyond the abandoning of our own ability to save ourselves, we don't have a belief that can save us.

Many and likely some here on this forum that were raised in a Christian home cannot pinpoint a time and place where they were regenerated/born again/receive the Holy Spirit. Myself, I go back to a point in time but I cannot say that at that point I experienced a 'damascus road' type conversion like my father did. I confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, was immersed and then went on being raised to follow Jesus. Now, to me, those who can't pinpoint a specific 'accepting Jesus' time and yet believe in Christ, give me no reason to doubt they are saved.

So, and I know this goes against the grain of believer's only baptism, if a baby is baptised in water and prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit, who am I to say that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit then when as they grew up they went on to follow Christ.

Perhaps the issue is more did we, at some point, have the Holy Spirit take up residence in our life or not. One could be baptised as a baby and prayed over or one could walk the aisle and/or say a sinner's prayer and yet not receive the Holy Spirit. If and when the Holy Spirit took up residence in a person, they will have a desire within them to follow Christ.

I'm just putting this out there for further thoughts. I know of those who were baptised only as babies who are following the Lord today, so 'fruit inspecting' on my part is not such to say they are likely not saved.
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Josh
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Josh »

The question if we obey:

"Repent, be baptised in Jesus' name, and you will receive the Holy Ghost."
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Sudsy
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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Josh wrote:The question if we obey:

"Repent, be baptised in Jesus' name, and you will receive the Holy Ghost."
And yet most of us have been baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Plus there is no reference in the NT that they ever baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Regardless, we too have received the Holy Spirit and believe we are following the Great Commission correctly. So, then we have to try to explain why the early church baptised in Jesus name. Were they being disobedient and not taking Jesus literally ?

I married a UPC minister's daughter and this was a big deal at our wedding. Of course, not believing in the Trinity, they baptised in Jesus name as they believe the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the name of Jesus so the early church was obeying the Great Commission.

Simple obedience isn't always that simple is it ?
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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ken_sylvania wrote:Thanks for the response Valerie.

I think what I'm picking up is that the OE in a sense do accept the general idea behind this "Age of Accountability" thing. I believe we all are agreed that if a two week old baby dies, it will not face eternal condemnation, regardless of whether its parents are believers and have faith. I think we also agree that according to the Bible, a person who has heard the full gospel truth and has rejected it will be barred from Heaven/Paradise. At some point in between, a person actually becomes accountable for their own choices. I do not believe that it is possible for a one month old child to rebel against God. They don't have the capacity to do so. But as that child matures, there will come a time when he/she has matured enough and received enough teaching that the child (or adult) will be able to understand the eternal consequences of choosing right or wrong. That time is not the same for every person. It will vary based on how quickly a person matures and how much teaching he/she receives. In calling this the "age of accountability" we're not saying a certain number of years, but rather a certain level of understanding/maturity.
You're welcome, it helps me as I wrestle with all this because I've been taught 'certain' beliefs in my own denominations (or supposed non-denominations) and I really seek to gain more understanding of all this, rather than assume others are wrong (who am I to say so?) I want to remove false assumptions and interpretations and I'm sorry for the past where because of what I was taught, I was assuming possibly other's were deceived when in reality, perhaps I was- very humbling-
I agree with what your conclusion is about EO & age of accountablility that there is somewhat of an inference of this- but not a doctrine- probably where the separation lies in a seemingly deeper understanding of baptism that what appears so simple in Scripture-For one thing, in the ancient faith, by reading statements by early Church writers, and EO teachings, John 3:5 reference to born again IS your baptism (I remember an Amish bishop seemingly implying this too, he was an 18th century bishop whose book I read that was translated in English). I never was taught John 3:5 refers to baptism-by Water (baptism)& Spirit (being anointed & receiving the Holy Spirit in your baptism). I imagine there was a lot more teaching and discussion about so many things, then what we are left with in Scripture alone- where as I am more open to accepting this (even though i was always "Bible Only" for decades, I now believe there were oral teachings that expounded with deeper understandings than I was taught. Well really as a former classic Pentecost type, Bible only isn't exactly correct as we believe(d) the Holy Spirit will 'speak' into your life specifically- through the gifts of the Spirit- it wouldn't be contrary to Scripture, but it would be a guiding into your life or receiving a word of knowledge, etc- (that's a whole different topic!)
Anyways I am just seeking to understand more rather than live by assumptions of teachers I sat under so long-
Age though, I think of King Josiah and other young kings of Israel (or Judah?) for example 2 Kings 22:
22 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of bBozkath. 2 And he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in all the way of David his father, and he did not turn aside to the right or to the left.
I think there were other kings of a young age like that- evil, would have to read back through Kings or Chronicles but really it's just to recognize at least in Israel, children apparently could be mature enough to 'reign' and already be considered 'good' or 'evil'. Just thoughts about ages & maturity-and how being brought up in the faith is so important! I do believe very young children can have more faith and understanding than we give them credit for.
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by cmbl »

Going waaay back to pages 2 and 3...
Josh wrote:It's not something really detailed in scripture, but it is definitely assumed in a few places; nobody holds an infant responsible for their choices, but everyone holds someone who is well past adolescence and is of sane mind to be responsible for their choices. The culture Jesus was in had a general perspective that at the age of 13, someone was an adult and needed to be responsible to know how to worship and obey God properly, and from then on had an obligation to do so.
This makes sense.
buckeyematt2 wrote:Right, I agree. It's not explicitly stated anywhere, OT or NT, but is assumed or implied...

According to the age of accountability, children are not innocent in the sense of being sinless, but in the sense that they are held unaccountable for their wrongs. In agreement with this, the Old Testament refers to children as "innocent" a number of times, in the sense of being found "not guilty" in court. (For example, when it speaks of "innocents" being sacrificed to Moloch).
That's a good distinction.
What are the alternatives? We have these options...
A thorough analysis.

Thanks Josh and buckeyematt.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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I've had many go-rounds about this. 1/2 of my family is Methodist, and then one or two EO-influenced. It boggles my mind really, infant baptism does.
I don't leave much wiggle room on this "issue". I see infant/ premature baptism as godless idolatry.
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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KingdomBuilder wrote:I've had many go-rounds about this. 1/2 of my family is Methodist, and then one or two EO-influenced. It boggles my mind really, infant baptism does.
I don't leave much wiggle room on this "issue". I see infant/ premature baptism as godless idolatry.
I understand, I never saw it as 'idol worship' at all but I didn't have the understanding yet until I really sought to understand it. I may not have become EO, but I certainly see how they have much deeper understandings for many things in Christianity- as I read their interpretations throughout the Bible it has really shown me that there is much more meat to things than I understood before- yet I am still very limited.
However that being said, whether one understands it or not- I would be afraid of calling it 'idolatry' and be accountable for that accusation. Especially if it is true, as some early Church writers said, that the Apostles whom the Lord commissioned, are the ones who taught to baptize them if they had believing parents- I will just let it be and not judge either way about the matter-
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Sudsy
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:I've had many go-rounds about this. 1/2 of my family is Methodist, and then one or two EO-influenced. It boggles my mind really, infant baptism does.
I don't leave much wiggle room on this "issue". I see infant/ premature baptism as godless idolatry.
I would suggest it is a good thing God does not see it as a sin keeping those baptised as such from being saved. From my
'fruit inspecting' that would be how I see infant baptism for those who continue on as Christ followers, many living more obedient than those immersed as professing believers. I have some wonderful brothers and sisters in the Lord in the Salvation Army who have never been baptised in water, period, and I have no doubt they, too, are a strong part of the Church that God is building.
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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..............................whoops, extra post deleted
Last edited by Fidelio on Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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KingdomBuilder wrote:I've had many go-rounds about this. 1/2 of my family is Methodist, and then one or two EO-influenced. It boggles my mind really, infant baptism does.
I don't leave much wiggle room on this "issue". I see infant/ premature baptism as godless idolatry.
I was baptized when I was 27 years old. My wife was baptized as an infant because her family is Lutheran. Baptism made no sense to me the way the Lutherans explained it. They would tell me baptism saves a person, but I would think how can that be when I was born again five months before I was baptized. What did baptism do for me? Was it like the Lord's supper, which they said strengthens your faith. But that did not seem right either because if that was the purpose of baptism, why not do it more often instead of just once. But now I understand my baptism was an act of obedience and a declaration of a commitment to die to self and live for Jesus.
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