Holdeman Transitions ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Sudsy
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Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Sudsy »

Curious as to what is thought regarding this effort. Josh could probably give more insight on this. Here is one video introducing this, another about escaping fear motivation and another of personal testimony.





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Sudsy
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Here is another video I find disturbing. Does this still go on ?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Sudsy wrote:Here is another video I find disturbing. Does this still go on ?
Some of my "friends" from my former church shared a video or two declaring all moderate conservative mennonite conferences a cults. I would say that this sort of thing is counterproductive if it is used simply to denote a church you disagree with, or want to leave, which you are free to do. Prior to Joining I am sure they let the prospective member know what they are about, and have a probationary period. You can normally find people that are disgruntled and leave just about any anabaptist group, and COGICM is large, therefor you should see a fair number of these.

Is there any reason you are sharing this with us? Are other conservative conferences next on your list?

J.M.
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cmbl
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Sudsy wrote:Does this still go on ?
No.
According to GAMEO it stopped in the 70s.
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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There is an excommunicated former member of the CGCM suing at law both his former congregation and any other Holdeman organisation he can find to sue. Basically he is alleging being excommunicated has caused him great pain and suffering and is suing both for vast monetary damages and also an injunction to be reinstated into the church.

To be frank, all of our Christian denominations have some pretty unhappy people who've left - a lot of atheists grew up in Judaism or evangelical Christianity and are very negative about their childhood religion now. A lot of conservative Mennonites and Amish also depart the religion for evangelical Christianity and have very, very negative things to say about what they grew up in.

But nowhere have I encountered the level of vitriol of those who have left or been excommunicated from the CGCM. On the one hand they bitterly resent the separation, whilst at the same time complaining how they should be fully accepted back (with all their new religious beliefs) and also asserting that the CGCM is definitely a false church.

Maybe JM is right and it's just owing to our size - about 25,000 members - but for a group that has the least attrition of virtually any plain group other than the Amish, we sure have some very vocal ex-members. By now a few have ended up in my orbit, who are making impassioned pleas for me to get away from the church as far as possible.

I don't get it. Maybe it's because it would be easy as pie for me to go back into the world or to slide into evangelical Christianity.
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Valerie
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Here is another video I find disturbing. Does this still go on ?
Some of my "friends" from my former church shared a video or two declaring all moderate conservative mennonite conferences a cults. I would say that this sort of thing is counterproductive if it is used simply to denote a church you disagree with, or want to leave, which you are free to do. Prior to Joining I am sure they let the prospective member know what they are about, and have a probationary period. You can normally find people that are disgruntled and leave just about any anabaptist group, and COGICM is large, therefor you should see a fair number of these.

Is there any reason you are sharing this with us? Are other conservative conferences next on your list?

J.M.
My closest friends were concerned about me when I was really appreciative (but didn't join) the Charity movement of Anabaptism, and it seemed they were afraid it was cultic like as well. Probably anytime others see 'prescribed' dress and extra Biblical rules (even if they use Scripture to support those rules) people outside of these denominations see these things as red flags- because for example, the appearance of the Mormon group FLDS was very similar to Mennonite dress- people can make those connections and be truly concerned for us. I don't get offended by legitimate concerns because there are so many cults out there- people tend to want to find out if those they care about are being drawn to them-

I only watched the last video- it reminded me of what a former Amish friend went through before leaving Amish- however I don't see those people as 'disgruntled' they simply did not go along with "the Purge" that was happening in Holdeman Church in Canada- actually they seemed thankful then to be excommunicated because their own concerns about what was happening, seemed legitimate-

If one belongs to a denomination that claims to be the one true church like Holdeman, it does prompt people to explore what they are really about- especially since Holdeman felt, according to this- that the Mennonites had somewhat fallen away- it reminded me of the same reasoning Jakob Ammann had for leaving Mennonites & gathering a following-
Probably some of these folks had grown up in that faith but when this "Purge" began (and they did point out the difference in the U.S. Holdeman Church) they honestly couldn't go along with the changes- it did seem they suffered some loss for this but were sure they were better off for it.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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My experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing, other than a few bizarre things the leaders wanted simply because they could get away with controlling specific details of people's lives. I believe Bootstrap's experience was similar.
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Valerie
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Josh wrote:My experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing, other than a few bizarre things the leaders wanted simply because they could get away with controlling specific details of people's lives. I believe Bootstrap's experience was similar.
Have you seen the FLDS dress Josh? They were not normal assimilated clothing- they looked similar to Mennonites-
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:My experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing, other than a few bizarre things the leaders wanted simply because they could get away with controlling specific details of people's lives. I believe Bootstrap's experience was similar.
Have you seen the FLDS dress Josh? They were not normal assimilated clothing- they looked similar to Mennonites-
FLDS is a tiny tiny group in a few very isolated locations and they make no effort at all to recruit outsiders. The risk of anyone joining an FLDS group is about zero.

I think it's pretty stupid to say we should be worried about a group because of what their clothes look like. Scientologists wear jeans, Tshirts, and tuxedos. I don't think that people who wear jeans, Tshirts, or tuxedos should be stereotyped as potentially part of a cult.
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Valerie
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:My experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing, other than a few bizarre things the leaders wanted simply because they could get away with controlling specific details of people's lives. I believe Bootstrap's experience was similar.
Have you seen the FLDS dress Josh? They were not normal assimilated clothing- they looked similar to Mennonites-
FLDS is a tiny tiny group in a few very isolated locations and they make no effort at all to recruit outsiders. The risk of anyone joining an FLDS group is about zero.

I think it's pretty stupid to say we should be worried about a group because of what their clothes look like. Scientologists wear jeans, Tshirts, and tuxedos. I don't think that people who wear jeans, Tshirts, or tuxedos should be stereotyped as potentially part of a cult.
Well this is my point: you claimed your experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing. When the FLDS were on the news for more than a year, all of a sudden the country became very familiar with them- and they were a cult. OF course most people believe Mormons are a cult anyway- but this group had dress like Mennonites & horse & buggies, etc- so when people viewed this cult being on the news for so long (with updates of the charges for the leader) then they see these types of dress 'standards' and start wondering about other faith groups that have dictated styles of clothing and can see red flags to give them concerns- I'm just saying that if people are concerned for others because of the fact cults do exist, then they CAN have legitimate concerns.
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