Holdeman Transitions ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Josh »

Lester's 3 points are valid, although I think Holdemans get an unfair rap for "accepting divorce and remarriage". Regardless, there would never be a union of Holdemans and other conservative churches in fellowship with each other. Either views in D&R would have to change or the Holdeman church would have to excommunicate half its converts.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by MattY »

lesterb wrote:There is a lot to like about the Holdeman church. I would have three basic concerns I would need to sort through before joining them.

1. The idea of being the only true church. I think some of them are backing away from that, but their official literature would still intimate that. Though in actual practice most of their leaders wouldn't actually denounce every other church as not being part of God's church.

2. Their authoritarian position and the shunning that is related to it. Again, I think some of this has been mitigated somewhat over the years. But they still seem to be pretty strong on this idea of discerning spirits. In my experience that is one of the easiest things to misuse in church life, because people who don't agree with you normally have a "wrong" spirit.

3. Their position on divorce and remarriage. That's been hashed around enough in the history of this board and its predecessor that I probably don't need to enlarge on that.

The first two, I could probably live with, if necessary. The third, I'm not sure I could.
I'd be kind of the opposite. My main objections would be the first two. I'd have to review their exact position on the third one, but I could probably live with it, especially if it's basically taking the "exception clause" the way it naturally reads (which was the position of the early Anabaptists including Sattler and Menno), rather than casting about for the most strict interpretation possible in order to eliminate the exception. But overall, I simply couldn't join because of the first two points, so the third is moot.

As for the videos Sudsy posted, I don't dismiss people's and hurts - whether in regard to leaving the Holdemans or any other conservative Anabaptist denomination, or any other Christian denomination, really. No group is perfect, which is not an excuse for ignoring things - we should get better. But we probably shouldn't say that the hurtful experience that some have had (while it is certainly tragic) is the normal experience across the board. (I don't like broad-brushing). The one main red flag would be the 1970's purgings; but that is no longer happening as far as we know. So I would say, think carefully before joining; but for those who have done so, and have found that they basically agree with the church and that it fits what they need in their spiritual life (which I assume is true of Josh), I don't want to discourage the decision you've made, and God bless you.
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Wade
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Wade »

The majority of the world doesn't have any non-resistant, Christ following church nearby they can choose from.
It nice to see people working together living for Christ wanting to honour God as best as they know how and especially those wanting to work together with newcomers. (Even if they don't have everything "right," and are honest about it.)
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Sudsy
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Sudsy »

After taking the time to read through this entire site http://www.theholdemans.com/apology.htm and read things that were concerns I was having with what I heard shared on this forum about COGIC Holdeman, personally I would keep quite clear of this group. Not that I agree with everything argued against their beliefs and practise but my understanding of Christianity and Christian practise is far from theirs in too many important areas.

I can't say as buckeyematt2 to stay with them if it is meeting your spiritual life needs but that is my opinion. And some may say to flee from the MB church I attend and we each have our concerns for where this association might lead to. Some have already warned me about being a Greg Boyd and Bruxy Cavey fan. I appreciate that warning and the need to be careful with new interpretations on what they see as twisted scriptures and things like open theism and other non-traditional views.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:My experience with cults is that they wear normal assimilated clothing, other than a few bizarre things the leaders wanted simply because they could get away with controlling specific details of people's lives. I believe Bootstrap's experience was similar.
Have you seen the FLDS dress Josh? They were not normal assimilated clothing- they looked similar to Mennonites-
If you saw the guys, you would not be able to sort them out from the rest of Utah.

As to the gals, it is HIGHLY unlikely you would see any of them . I spent like a week and a half in Utah visiting friends and going to a convention, including a trip down to St. George. Did not see a one of them. FLDS seems all about controlling women, and is definitely a cult.

I did hear a conservative menno. gal complain about being mistaken for one, but I really don't think they look all that alike. The modest head covering of the mennonite verses the outlandish up-do of the FLDS should be a giveaway. BTW, you will see a lot of gals in more rural Utah that look like they could have stepped right out of a BMA meeting minus the head covering. Mainstream Mormonism does have a modesty position, namely that what you are wearing need cover your "garments."

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Josh »

It's been utterly exhausting how many people's advice is to "steer clear" of every Anabaptist group I've affiliated with, whether MC USA, Midwest, CMC, Beachy, or now Holdeman.

I wish all the religious people with their sanctimonious advice had, well, existed anywhere for the decade and a half I spent lost in sin. The only people who ever invited me to church or tried to talk to me about spiritual things were obvious cults, or some of my family (who didn't go to church at the time or really have much fellowship at all), other than the young man who reached out to me and eventually led to my accepting Christ.

The whole thing is just exhausting. I lived right down the road from several non-Holdeman Mennonite churches for a decade. Drove past them all the time. Never knew anyone in any of them, never talked to anyone in any of them, never really thought a sinner like me would ever be able to be part of any Bible believing God fearing church.

I don't want anyone else to end up like I did, throwing 1/3 of their life away. And so I'm a lot less focused on specific doctrinal purity, angry screeds from ex-members, and a lot more focused on:

- Is the scripture preached?

- Are they loving to outsiders, to each other, and to the undeserving?

- Do they take serious efforts to evangelise everyone they meet, spread tracts, go try to set up missions in cities?

- Are they trying to be serious about obeying basic Bible teachings like loving your enemies, sharing the good news, scriptural practices like the veiling and modesty, and are openly immoral people told to repent and put out until they do?

The simple fact is, if you don't like Holdemans, then get out there and do better than they do.

In the mean time I'm just exhausted with this. I'm at the point where I don't want to talk to non-Holdeman Anabaptist people anymore because I always know it's coming. People who barely know me who feel freedom to question my salvation, encourage me to leave my church, and try to tear down my fellowship.

Where were you guys for the 10 years before I went to church... I was right down the street!
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Sudsy wrote:After taking the time to read through this entire site http://www.theholdemans.com/apology.htm and read things that were concerns I was having with what I heard shared on this forum about COGIC Holdeman, personally I would keep quite clear of this group. Not that I agree with everything argued against their beliefs and practise but my understanding of Christianity and Christian practise is far from theirs in too many important areas.
I took a look at that site, it is HUGE. Someone who wrote that has WAY to much time on their hands, as well as a general spirit of unforgivness. This may be as bad, if not worse than any doctrinal issues he could point out. I mean COGICM is not my cup of tea either, but there are better things to do than to dedicate your life to tearing down a church. It is far easier to demolish than it is to build. Maybe that is why so many people do it.

BTW, why are you reading this? Considering joining them?

J.M.
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Sudsy
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:It's been utterly exhausting how many people's advice is to "steer clear" of every Anabaptist group I've affiliated with, whether MC USA, Midwest, CMC, Beachy, or now Holdeman.

I wish all the religious people with their sanctimonious advice had, well, existed anywhere for the decade and a half I spent lost in sin. The only people who ever invited me to church or tried to talk to me about spiritual things were obvious cults, or some of my family (who didn't go to church at the time or really have much fellowship at all), other than the young man who reached out to me and eventually led to my accepting Christ.

The whole thing is just exhausting. I lived right down the road from several non-Holdeman Mennonite churches for a decade. Drove past them all the time. Never knew anyone in any of them, never talked to anyone in any of them, never really thought a sinner like me would ever be able to be part of any Bible believing God fearing church.

I don't want anyone else to end up like I did, throwing 1/3 of their life away. And so I'm a lot less focused on specific doctrinal purity, angry screeds from ex-members, and a lot more focused on:

- Is the scripture preached?

- Are they loving to outsiders, to each other, and to the undeserving?

- Do they take serious efforts to evangelise everyone they meet, spread tracts, go try to set up missions in cities?

- Are they trying to be serious about obeying basic Bible teachings like loving your enemies, sharing the good news, scriptural practices like the veiling and modesty, and are openly immoral people told to repent and put out until they do?

The simple fact is, if you don't like Holdemans, then get out there and do better than they do.

In the mean time I'm just exhausted with this. I'm at the point where I don't want to talk to non-Holdeman Anabaptist people anymore because I always know it's coming. People who barely know me who feel freedom to question my salvation, encourage me to leave my church, and try to tear down my fellowship.

Where were you guys for the 10 years before I went to church... I was right down the street!
I don't think anyone here is questioning your salvation, Josh. However, we wouldn't be very caring to not say to be careful about groups that see themselves as the one true church. Valerie, gets pounded pretty good here with regard to the Eastern Orthodox seeing themselves as that one true church. Any group caring to make claims like this will be challenged.

And Evangelicals and Protestants here are often given some pretty direct slaps about their practises. Even some of us Anabaptists get slotted into these categories that sound 'Very Spiritual', 'Somewhat Spiritual', 'Not Very Spiritual' and 'Not at all Spiritual/Worldly'. It is easy to sound 'holier-than-thou' when we express what sounds like what we do better than other groups and this draws a challenge. I think we just have to work through this and check to see just how close to scripture we are living. And we won't all agree.

I would not or could not be part of the group you are in for my reasons but that is still your decision. I have no problem with various areas of Holdeman practise and most groups have their pros. But we have our cons also. As some write posts that give us warnings about our practises going down slippery slopes toward worldliness, others give warnings about what they see as other practises of Christianity that lead towards legalism and controlling environments. We must look out for both.

Hang in there and rely on God's direction. This faith journey is a learning experience for all of us.
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Wade
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:It's been utterly exhausting how many people's advice is to "steer clear" of every Anabaptist group I've affiliated with, whether MC USA, Midwest, CMC, Beachy, or now Holdeman.

I wish all the religious people with their sanctimonious advice had, well, existed anywhere for the decade and a half I spent lost in sin. The only people who ever invited me to church or tried to talk to me about spiritual things were obvious cults, or some of my family (who didn't go to church at the time or really have much fellowship at all), other than the young man who reached out to me and eventually led to my accepting Christ.

The whole thing is just exhausting. I lived right down the road from several non-Holdeman Mennonite churches for a decade. Drove past them all the time. Never knew anyone in any of them, never talked to anyone in any of them, never really thought a sinner like me would ever be able to be part of any Bible believing God fearing church.

I don't want anyone else to end up like I did, throwing 1/3 of their life away. And so I'm a lot less focused on specific doctrinal purity, angry screeds from ex-members, and a lot more focused on:

- Is the scripture preached?

- Are they loving to outsiders, to each other, and to the undeserving?

- Do they take serious efforts to evangelise everyone they meet, spread tracts, go try to set up missions in cities?

- Are they trying to be serious about obeying basic Bible teachings like loving your enemies, sharing the good news, scriptural practices like the veiling and modesty, and are openly immoral people told to repent and put out until they do?

The simple fact is, if you don't like Holdemans, then get out there and do better than they do.

In the mean time I'm just exhausted with this. I'm at the point where I don't want to talk to non-Holdeman Anabaptist people anymore because I always know it's coming. People who barely know me who feel freedom to question my salvation, encourage me to leave my church, and try to tear down my fellowship.

Where were you guys for the 10 years before I went to church... I was right down the street!
Amen Josh!
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Sudsy
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Sudsy »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Sudsy wrote:After taking the time to read through this entire site http://www.theholdemans.com/apology.htm and read things that were concerns I was having with what I heard shared on this forum about COGIC Holdeman, personally I would keep quite clear of this group. Not that I agree with everything argued against their beliefs and practise but my understanding of Christianity and Christian practise is far from theirs in too many important areas.
I took a look at that site, it is HUGE. Someone who wrote that has WAY to much time on their hands, as well as a general spirit of unforgivness. This may be as bad, if not worse than any doctrinal issues he could point out. I mean COGICM is not my cup of tea either, but there are better things to do than to dedicate your life to tearing down a church. It is far easier to demolish than it is to build. Maybe that is why so many people do it.

BTW, why are you reading this? Considering joining them?

J.M.
I read things like this as part of understanding about what a group is all about. Josh often shares the pros he experiences in this group. This couple feels it important enough to have a website to express the cons of his group and I don't share your view that there mission is based on unforgiveness. Did you actually read the various links and how their views have changed from the views they once held and supported in a book writing ? I share many of their changed views and they fit in more with my Anabaptist church. If we are not to investigate our practises against scripture, because it takes time then we won't learn much more than we have been told to believe. If that is how you chose to live, that is your choice but not mine. I want to hear the cons about the group I am in as I just might be too blinded by the pros to see the cons myself.

As I shared before I grew up in a very similar environment to a very conservative Anabaptist group and basically was told nothing in Christianity could be any better. Once I left and have been a part of other Christian faith groups, I see the pros and cons much more clearly within The Church of Christ. All that I was told about them was not true. And there is much more to learn.
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