Holdeman Transitions ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

Post by Josh »

Yes, I read that person's website a few years ago along with the network54 forum's various postings. I assumed the CGCM was essentially a false church.

Suffice to say I believe in nonresistance and the veiling - that person believes in neither - I wish them well, but we are both going in opposite paths. Their beef with the CGCM is that the CGCM is not a generic evangelical group. I find this ridiculous when there are millions of evangelicals in America and millions more globally and the CGCM is 25,000 people. Essentially, they have a belief system you must have to be a True Believer and to be a True Church.

I don't spend any time here complaining about the MB. The MN in the US have dropped nonresistance, and that's something I do feel is a problem. The CMC where I live is the same way.

In fact before I started attending at a CGCM church I attended at a CMC church. It was not a spiritually uplifting time for me at all. I wish people well for whom such a church works out well for them, I'm just not one of those people who thrive in an "anything goes" environment.
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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E.g.:
Chapter 5 Nonresistance: There was a time when I didn’t understand that the role of a Christian is to love our enemies and the role of the soldier and policeman is to bring those enemies under submission by force. Was I a murderer at heart? Is the policeman a murderer—or rather a “minister of God” who “beareth not the sword in vain” ?

All who follow Christ know that He taught us to turn the other cheek and bless our enemies. But some Christians feel this means in daily life among the citizenry and does not extend into national defense. After all, the examples were all civic inconveniences, not legal attacks.Those Christians who feel that their civic duty is the same as any unbeliever are not murderers any more than the solider is a murderer before God.

Chapter 6 Unconditional Eternal Security: I still believe that if one loses his faith, he loses his salvation, for we stand by faith. However, I believe God's keeping power will not allow a true Christian to permanently lose his faith. There have always been Christians on both sides of this argument. I retract my vilifying statements.
This seems to boil down to "Holdemans are deceived and are a false church because they aren't God-and-country Baptists."
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Josh wrote:E.g.:
Chapter 5 Nonresistance: There was a time when I didn’t understand that the role of a Christian is to love our enemies and the role of the soldier and policeman is to bring those enemies under submission by force. Was I a murderer at heart? Is the policeman a murderer—or rather a “minister of God” who “beareth not the sword in vain” ?

All who follow Christ know that He taught us to turn the other cheek and bless our enemies. But some Christians feel this means in daily life among the citizenry and does not extend into national defense. After all, the examples were all civic inconveniences, not legal attacks.Those Christians who feel that their civic duty is the same as any unbeliever are not murderers any more than the solider is a murderer before God.

Chapter 6 Unconditional Eternal Security: I still believe that if one loses his faith, he loses his salvation, for we stand by faith. However, I believe God's keeping power will not allow a true Christian to permanently lose his faith. There have always been Christians on both sides of this argument. I retract my vilifying statements.
This seems to boil down to "Holdemans are deceived and are a false church because they aren't God-and-country Baptists."
This is a typical example of how our beliefs in some areas change as we seek to understand Christ following better. To those who are convinced in their minds that total non-resistance is what Jesus requires of us, this may be considered as heresy. The same with the head covering. Yet both are interpretations of scripture. Personally, these are not big issues and a bigger issue to me is interfering with the work of the Spirit in each individual's life by creating sanctification rules that must be followed to retain fellowship and withdrawing from other Christians in other groups as though they are not Christians.

I think we all likely have our buttons that when pushed we respond. Some here may consider our MB church as a 'false church' for it's D&R view that permanent marriage is God's ideal and should be diligently worked at yet God gives more than one chance to correct any and all sin. I believe these to be secondary issues and I am more concerned about a 'false gospel' that denies Christ dying for our sin and rising again conquering death and this Gospel resulting in changed lives desiring to serve God.

Anyway, we can't know the true heart motivation of the couple setting up this site even though they word their stuff out of great concern for others in the COGICM. This thread was to get other posters thoughts on this extensive effort to warn others of the group that you appear to me to promote as the closest true followers of Christ. Sort of like what Valerie is accused of with the EO. Neither one of you may have intentions of promoting one Christian group over another but to some of us it reads this way and so we are curious about the cons to go with these pros.
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Josh
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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So if sanctification rules aren't necessary where does it end? Homosexual marriages? Open fornication? That's the direction eg Central District has gone in.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Josh wrote:So if sanctification rules aren't necessary where does it end? Homosexual marriages? Open fornication? That's the direction eg Central District has gone in.
You seem to say that without sanctification rules we cannot or will not be sanctified ? Well, following sanctification rules could also leave one religious yet not sanctified as sanctification must begin in the heart.

I agree that sanctification is greatly needed in our Christianity here in North America and we need more teaching on being in the world but not of the world. Sanctification to me is a work of the Holy Spirit where the Spirit convicts us and gives us power over sin. It is not a work of man to say to do or don't do a list of things.

Imo, it is not a lack of rules that causes people to justify sins explicitly spoken of in scripture but rather, if they are a new creation (which first must be the case) they need teaching on walking in the Spirit and not walking according to the flesh. Those I know that walk in the Spirit are daily convicted by the Spirit on what requires separation from in this world and what requires doing and engaging the world. A putting off and a putting on. The concept of getting everyone to follow a certain look of sanctification regardless of their spiritual growth, imo, interferes with the whole concept of God working in each individual as He alone knows their heart and weaknesses. As a group we encourage one another to pursue this life of walking in the Spirit which the scripture says, if we do, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

I need to walk in the Spirit more as too often I step back into the flesh. I was just telling my wife yesterday of how I got drawn into a conversation that was slandering someone and I said some things I was convicted quickly that I should not say but I said them anyway. We are in a constant battle with the flesh but if we learn to be sensitive and co-operate with the Spirit we can have more occurrences of overcoming these sins. I don't need a book of rules when I have this person within me to guide me in the way that I should go.

Does your group talk much about this walking in the Spirit spoken of in scripture or is it more about following a list of rules ? I'm curious as to what they teach about the work of the Holy Spirit in each individual's life and how we all are in an individual development stage of spiritual growth. This is likely another topic that might be worth it's own thread.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Holdemans talk a great deal about the need to follow the "spirit" and how if one is born again / has the Spirit, one will just automatically start being more sanctified.

They also in general have an impression of other conservative Mennonites as being overly focused on rules, outward appearance / attire, and quite worried there could be a lack of inner sanctification covered up with an outward appearance of sanctification.

Now....... I have heard the same attitude at a Midwest church. At Beachy. At Followers of the Way. Basically everyone has the same view you do Sudsy. We just all don't seem to accept each other.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Sudsy wrote: This is a typical example of how our beliefs in some areas change as we seek to understand Christ following better. To those who are convinced in their minds that total non-resistance is what Jesus requires of us, this may be considered as heresy. The same with the head covering. Yet both are interpretations of scripture. Personally, these are not big issues and a bigger issue to me is interfering with the work of the Spirit in each individual's life by creating sanctification rules that must be followed to retain fellowship and withdrawing from other Christians in other groups as though they are not Christians.

so if non-resistance and head covering are just interpretations of scripture and we need to not pay attention to these because it interferes with the Spirit's leading (which quite regularly seems to lead in all directions) (that is if you trust people saying they are Spirit led and not spirit led) Why are we told to test the spirits and why bother reading the Bible at all? And if the only big issue is following the Spirit, why would you find reason not to fellowship with JW's? after all isn't it just interpretative differences and they are spirit led too?
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Sudsy
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Josh wrote:Holdemans talk a great deal about the need to follow the "spirit" and how if one is born again / has the Spirit, one will just automatically start being more sanctified.
They also in general have an impression of other conservative Mennonites as being overly focused on rules, outward appearance / attire, and quite worried there could be a lack of inner sanctification covered up with an outward appearance of sanctification.

Now....... I have heard the same attitude at a Midwest church. At Beachy. At Followers of the Way. Basically everyone has the same view you do Sudsy. We just all don't seem to accept each other.
Good to hear that Josh that the Holdemans are concerned about those areas you mentioned. I am not through looking further into what the Holdeman group believe and practise. I especially find the emphasis on evangelism you speak about to be encouraging as in general, I don't think Anabaptists are good at evangelizing and need to engage the world much more than they do. Our MB church included. Actually we recently hired a pastor who specializes in evangelism. An evangelistic emphasis that goes to where sinners habit with expectations that converts will have changed lives and are keen on following Christ is, imo, what Christianity is about.

I think the non-acceptance of each other surfaces more when any single group suggests they are the one true church, even if they don't go as far as saying other groups don't also have Christians in them. Although my childhood Pentecostal background accepted that there were Christians in other groups, in my local church, they did view other Christians as second class Kingdom citizens, imo. The Gospel was not 'full' until you were baptised in the Holy Spirit evidenced by the speaking in an unknown tongue. That point was one were the Christian & Missionary Alliance separated from them. When we think we have it all figured out in a group it leads to this non-acceptance of one another.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Sudsy wrote: When we think we have it all figured out in a group it leads to this non-acceptance of one another.
Or you can actually just stop striving to outdo other groups in some never ending head-game and you can focus on living the faith.
This isn't meant to be taken as an insult, Sudsy, but your approach in this thread seems to be very competitive.
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Re: Holdeman Transitions ?

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Soloist wrote:
Sudsy wrote: This is a typical example of how our beliefs in some areas change as we seek to understand Christ following better. To those who are convinced in their minds that total non-resistance is what Jesus requires of us, this may be considered as heresy. The same with the head covering. Yet both are interpretations of scripture. Personally, these are not big issues and a bigger issue to me is interfering with the work of the Spirit in each individual's life by creating sanctification rules that must be followed to retain fellowship and withdrawing from other Christians in other groups as though they are not Christians.

so if non-resistance and head covering are just interpretations of scripture and we need to not pay attention to these because it interferes with the Spirit's leading (which quite regularly seems to lead in all directions) (that is if you trust people saying they are Spirit led and not spirit led) Why are we told to test the spirits and why bother reading the Bible at all? And if the only big issue is following the Spirit, why would you find reason not to fellowship with JW's? after all isn't it just interpretative differences and they are spirit led too?
Because the bible says we now see 'through a glass darkly' and now only 'know in part'. I didn't say we should not pay attention to these areas so we would not interfere with the Spirit's leading. However, within Christianity there are numerous areas where Christians don't agree and we continue to explore. Most groups believe they are Spirit led. Is it an evil spirit that leads one group to see head coverings as long hair and another some form of material ? One to say all non-resistance is required and another that God uses some people to defend the helpless ? Is it that one tests the spirits and the other does not ? Or could it be that we make too big a deal on areas that God is not that concerned about or He would have had them written in such an indisputable way that we would not have differing interpretations ? For some reason(s) God has not made some areas that black and white. In the areas of head covering and total non-resistance, the majority of Christians in the world do not accept the Anabaptist view. Are we those with the exact application on these areas and therefore cannot fellowship with those who think differently ? I think we can and should to some extent.

When it comes to JWs, they do not recognize Jesus as Almighty God and do not worship Him. They do not accept the Trinity view of God. They also state 'We have faith that Jesus came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. His death and resurrection make it possible for those exercising faith in him to gain everlasting life." Will God accept them with their belief about what Jesus did even though they view Jesus as not God the Son ? We will have to wait and see. But regarding having fellowship with them on a different understanding of Jesus Himself, that is a very fundamental base we have for our belief and makes fellowship quite difficult if not impossible. Far different than from whether a woman should wear a certain kind of head covering or someone going to war or not, imo.
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