Holdeman "Documentary" is this true?

[Josh]

A church that takes the scripture text on excommunicating as the main issue to keep a church 'pure' or a church that believes in letting the wheat and tares grow together and if the tares don't leave, God will sort them out come judgment day.

Perhaps that might be a good topic to work through.

I think it’s rather obvious the church itself is not supposed to be full of unrepentant sinners. This was one of the main concerns of the original Anabaptists, actually.

Then how do you understand what Jesus said about allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat ?

p.s. Whoops, I meant to underline a comment from a previous post that begins - 'We believe the most important thing' ----------

I believe it is talking about the world in general and why God allows the unjust and those who are unrepentant to continue to live and prosper. Because in the New Testament world, tares may become wheat… and become part of the church too.

I see no point at all in attending church and communion with an unrepentant adulterer. Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his soul may yet be saved.

[Josh]

I think there's something to this idea. Coming from the more evangelical wing of LMC I've watched from afar as my home congregation has essentially emptied out, many landing in non-Mennonite churches. My own parents recently decamped for an Orthodox Presbyterian Church (though my father insists he's still Mennonite). It's terribly sad to watch but at the same time I have to recognize that by degrees I am part of the trend as well. I've observed that there's a desire to "find the right fit" among the evangelical-leaning folk which leads them to church hop and land in a place for a few years before beginning the process again.

I can respect your parents decamping if a congregation is clearly dying and has no future. OPC is not a terribly bad place to end up, although I don’t agree with their doctrines necessarily. They do seem to have strong families and more importantly I have met several OPC members who are committed to sharing the gospel with the lost.

That said, I recall reading Peter Hoover's "Radical Anabaptists Today" series and being struck by how willing the various "true radical" protagonists were willing to pick up and move to a different fellowship or community in search of brethren that held similar 'radical' attitudes about, beards for example. These are/were conservative Anabaptists that had no compunction about leaving fellowships and family in search of the "right fit". My LMC family and friends are looking for a fit that centers on preaching, worship-styles and youth groups - Hoover's folk were looking for a fit that focused on lifestyle and physical sacrifices. Both though are perfectly willing to leave and not look back.

Yes and I think we should be willing to do that. In Holdeman circles anyone is free to move anywhere they want and they can even start a new congregation, but they cannot stray from established doctrine and practice. Nearly all congregations are now founded this way.

I personally feel my family needs to be around people mature in the faith and other families for a while yet. We do feel called to the mission some day and are preparing to answer that call. (My wife pointed out we just missed out on a missionary couple being sent to France to distribute gospel tracts. The response to tracts has been very strong there. I am not personally that interested in France, but she is!)

[ken_sylvania]

A church that takes the scripture text on excommunicating as the main issue to keep a church 'pure' or a church that believes in letting the wheat and tares grow together and if the tares don't leave, God will sort them out come judgment day.

Perhaps that might be a good topic to work through.

I think it’s rather obvious the church itself is not supposed to be full of unrepentant sinners. This was one of the main concerns of the original Anabaptists, actually.

Then how do you understand what Jesus said about allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat ?

Jesus explained the parable to his disciples in 13:36-43. He said "The field is the world;..." The children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one will all live in the world until the judgement, when the angels will gather "those who do iniquity" and cast them into a furnace of fire.

[Sudsy]

I think it’s rather obvious the church itself is not supposed to be full of unrepentant sinners. This was one of the main concerns of the original Anabaptists, actually.

Then how do you understand what Jesus said about allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat ?

p.s. Whoops, I meant to underline a comment from a previous post that begins - 'We believe the most important thing' ----------

I believe it is talking about the world in general and why God allows the unjust and those who are unrepentant to continue to live and prosper. Because in the New Testament world, tares may become wheat… and become part of the church too.

I see no point at all in attending church and communion with an unrepentant adulterer. Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his soul may yet be saved.

I don't understand how the tares in the world are ones we could be uprooting and shouldn't unless it is some kind of 'holy war' where we try to 'kill off the infidels' as Christianity and other religions have done in history.

Interesting how you would not attend church with an unrepentant adulterer. What about attending with a gossiper or a slanderer or someone who exhibits pride or other sins ? Where does dis-fellowshipping end ?

[ken_sylvania]

Then how do you understand what Jesus said about allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat ?

p.s. Whoops, I meant to underline a comment from a previous post that begins - 'We believe the most important thing' ----------

I believe it is talking about the world in general and why God allows the unjust and those who are unrepentant to continue to live and prosper. Because in the New Testament world, tares may become wheat… and become part of the church too.

I see no point at all in attending church and communion with an unrepentant adulterer. Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his soul may yet be saved.

I don't understand how the tares in the world are ones we could be uprooting and shouldn't unless it is some kind of 'holy war' where we try to 'kill off the infidels' as Christianity and other religions have done in history.

Maybe that's exactly what it means. In fact, some of those who persecuted the Anabaptists justified their actions by saying that they could reach in along the edges and pluck out some of the tares and burn them awhile.

I'm not sure though how you conclude that the parable refers to tares that "we" could be uprooting and shouldn't. Jesus says that the servants referenced in this paragraph are the angels, not us.

[Sudsy]

I believe it is talking about the world in general and why God allows the unjust and those who are unrepentant to continue to live and prosper. Because in the New Testament world, tares may become wheat… and become part of the church too.

I see no point at all in attending church and communion with an unrepentant adulterer. Turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his soul may yet be saved.

I don't understand how the tares in the world are ones we could be uprooting and shouldn't unless it is some kind of 'holy war' where we try to 'kill off the infidels' as Christianity and other religions have done in history.

Maybe that's exactly what it means. In fact, some of those who persecuted the Anabaptists justified their actions by saying that they could reach in along the edges and pluck out some of the tares and burn them awhile.

I'm not sure though how you conclude that the parable refers to tares that "we" could be uprooting and shouldn't. Jesus says that the servants referenced in this paragraph are the angels, not us.

To your last paragraph - exactly. This is a job for the angels at judgment time.

[ohio jones]

Is it pronounced "Hold-em-in" because that's what it sounds like happens in the church...

Maybe it's like Mr. Rogers puts it:

You got to know when to Holdeman
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

And maybe it's time for me to run

[Heirbyadoption]

We don’t have an “easy exit” model of church membership. Once one joins the church, you have joined it. Jesus doesn’t want his sheep leaving his sheepfold.

I realize it has been mentioned before, but it strikes me as worth mentioning again, having recently been at the annual conference of another conservative Anabaptist-type church fellowship where many of my friends (who are still members there) consider myself and many others (who are no longer members there) to have similarly left Jesus' sheepfold, in spite of our affiliating with another Plain church fellowship and similarly seeking to live what is here termed a "Christian life"...

If you honestly consider, or at least treat, someone who chooses to leave your church fellowship (even for another Anabaptist group), as having left Jesus' sheepfold, your definition (or least your group's formal definition) of Jesus' sheepfold is visibly and undeniably limited to your church group. Therefore, any claim that "we don't judge those outside" is rendered immediately and unavoidably disingenuous. I think it's wonderful that you have experienced Christian fellowship with other Anabaptists outside the COGICM, but if you get right down to brass tacks, how can members of your church group truly have Christian fellowship with those outside your membership lines, if crossing out of that line is legitimately considered to be leaving Jesus' sheepfold?

This is not visible church theology, it is the OTC heresy exposed. And I have been blessed to hear younger Holdemans renouncing it, even if it has been the position of the COGICM in previous generations. And defaulting to "others draw similar lines" (other OTC minded, or acting, groups use similar expressions) doesn't change the practical application existence of the OTC any more than my 8 year old justifying disobeying me because one of his siblings chose to defy me as well... The next generation of COGICMs would benefit greatly by redefining their terminology and expressions of ideology/ecclesiology away from a blanket reference along the lines of leaving Jesus' sheepfold if, such as you mentioned, they do indeed believe they can share Christian fellowship with Anabaptist believers in other church groups...

[Josh]

I realize it has been mentioned before, but it strikes me as worth mentioning again, having recently been at the annual conference of another conservative Anabaptist-type church fellowship where many of my friends (who are still members there) consider myself and many others (who are no longer members there) to have similarly left Jesus' sheepfold, in spite of our affiliating with another Plain church fellowship and similarly seeking to live what is here termed a "Christian life"...

If someone left our church yet continued to live a Christian life and was part of a good, strong, healthy church teaching the gospel and with members living Christian lives, I would not be bothered at all.

I have yet to ever face the scenario with anyone I know or am acquainted with. I think I can theoretically think of 1 example of this that I know of, but I have not actually met the specific people yet.

If you honestly consider, or at least treat, someone who chooses to leave your church fellowship (even for another Anabaptist group), as having left Jesus' sheepfold, your definition (or least your group's formal definition) of Jesus' sheepfold is visibly and undeniably limited to your church group. Therefore, any claim that "we don't judge those outside" is rendered immediately and unavoidably disingenuous. How can members of your church group have Christian fellowship with those outside your membership lines, if crossing out of that line is considered leaving Jesus' sheepfold?

I simply don't agree that someone can float around from a strong, true church to just any church they feel like and not be falling into grave spiritual danger.

Some churches think this is fine. I encourage people who want to have the freedom to change churches to seek one of those places. Amongst plain churches, that includes things like BMA, CMC, Lancaster Conference, Mid-West, liberal Beachys, and so forth.

One of the consequences of choosing that is that, in turn, you may find many people you fellowshipped with suddenly stop attending one Sunday morning and you find out they are at a much more liberal church and then you have to face how you are going to deal with that.

The next generation of COGICMs would benefit greatly by redefining their terminology and expressions of ideology/ecclesiology away from a blanket reference along the lines of leaving Jesus' sheepfold if, such as you mentioned, they do indeed believe they can share Christian fellowship with Anabaptist believers in other church groups...

The next generation of COGICMs have zero to gain from acting like Beachys or other barely-conservative Mennonites, who just keep getting more and more worldly and half their young people leave for a worldly church so they can watch sports on TV, buy expensive cars, wear immodest clothes, and cast away the covering, yet somehow maintain the delusion they are living "Christian lives" and expect the rest of their family who hasn't rushed straight into the world to be in "fellowship" with them.

The rest of the conservative Anabaptist world needs to get their act together about this. They should be presenting a serious, real alternative to OTC type of thinking and belief. Instead, the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world is busy accepting people from slightly more conservative fellowships and repeating myths about anyone more conservative than them that such people are "legalistic" and "works based"... and then simultaneously watching people leave for a more-liberal church and dismayed that this keeps happening. I want no part of such an institution.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my local Charity affiliate now has its young people vaping and drinking. I don't want to be part of a church like that.

[Heirbyadoption]

I realize it has been mentioned before, but it strikes me as worth mentioning again, having recently been at the annual conference of another conservative Anabaptist-type church fellowship where many of my friends (who are still members there) consider myself and many others (who are no longer members there) to have similarly left Jesus' sheepfold, in spite of our affiliating with another Plain church fellowship and similarly seeking to live what is here termed a "Christian life"...

If someone left our church yet continued to live a Christian life and was part of a good, strong, healthy church teaching the gospel and with members living Christian lives, I would not be bothered at all.

I have yet to ever face the scenario with anyone I know or am acquainted with. I think I can theoretically think of 1 example of this that I know of, but I have not actually met the specific people yet.

If you honestly consider, or at least treat, someone who chooses to leave your church fellowship (even for another Anabaptist group), as having left Jesus' sheepfold, your definition (or least your group's formal definition) of Jesus' sheepfold is visibly and undeniably limited to your church group. Therefore, any claim that "we don't judge those outside" is rendered immediately and unavoidably disingenuous. How can members of your church group have Christian fellowship with those outside your membership lines, if crossing out of that line is considered leaving Jesus' sheepfold?

I simply don't agree that someone can float around from a strong, true church to just any church they feel like and not be falling into grave spiritual danger.

Some churches think this is fine. I encourage people who want to have the freedom to change churches to seek one of those places. Amongst plain churches, that includes things like BMA, CMC, Lancaster Conference, Mid-West, liberal Beachys, and so forth.

One of the consequences of choosing that is that, in turn, you may find many people you fellowshipped with suddenly stop attending one Sunday morning and you find out they are at a much more liberal church and then you have to face how you are going to deal with that.

The next generation of COGICMs would benefit greatly by redefining their terminology and expressions of ideology/ecclesiology away from a blanket reference along the lines of leaving Jesus' sheepfold if, such as you mentioned, they do indeed believe they can share Christian fellowship with Anabaptist believers in other church groups...

The next generation of COGICMs have zero to gain from acting like Beachys or other barely-conservative Mennonites, who just keep getting more and more worldly and half their young people leave for a worldly church so they can watch sports on TV, buy expensive cars, wear immodest clothes, and cast away the covering, yet somehow maintain the delusion they are living "Christian lives" and expect the rest of their family who hasn't rushed straight into the world to be in "fellowship" with them.

The rest of the conservative Anabaptist world needs to get their act together about this. They should be presenting a serious, real alternative to OTC type of thinking and belief. Instead, the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world is busy accepting people from slightly more conservative fellowships and repeating myths about anyone more conservative than them that such people are "legalistic" and "works based"... and then simultaneously watching people leave for a more-liberal church and dismayed that this keeps happening. I want no part of such an institution.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my local Charity affiliate now has its young people vaping and drinking. I don't want to be part of a church like that.

8 minutes... I figured it would take at least 15. Just leaving work. I'll share a few thoughts tomorrow. Blessings on your evening.