Holdeman "Documentary" is this true?

[Josh]

We do lots of tract work and mission outreach and most of it is focused on a simple gospel message. Most people who read gospel tracts don’t end up coming to our church but might go to another one.

What is the point of that if there is only "one true church?"

We believe the most important thing in any person’s life is to believe the good news and be born again.

After people are born again, some will desire to join a church. The Lord will lead some to join our church.

[Chris]

We do lots of tract work and mission outreach and most of it is focused on a simple gospel message. Most people who read gospel tracts don’t end up coming to our church but might go to another one.

What is the point of that if there is only "one true church?"

We believe the most important thing in any person’s life is to believe the good news and be born again.

After people are born again, some will desire to join a church. The Lord will lead some to join our church.

Why would God lead people to join a "lesser church" than the Holdemans?

[Soloist]

Why would God lead people to join a "lesser church" than the Holdemans?

I was told by a minister that all true Christians would end up in the Holdeman church

[Josh]

Why would God lead people to join a "lesser church" than the Holdemans?

I was told by a minister that all true Christians would end up in the Holdeman church

That belief is rare these days in anyone under the age of 50.

There is a belief that eventually Jesus will unify all churches plus believers who aren’t part of a church at all. But don’t most Christians have this belief?

[Josh]

What is the point of that if there is only "one true church?"

We believe the most important thing in any person’s life is to believe the good news and be born again.

After people are born again, some will desire to join a church. The Lord will lead some to join our church.

Why would God lead people to join a "lesser church" than the Holdemans?

That’s a good question yet it obviously happens.

I have met sincere believers in Catholic, Baptist, and other types of churches. I think you and I would both agree there are serious flaws there yet the Lord is content for many sheep to be there.

It is not my business what the Lord decides to do since he is sovereign and I am not. We do simply believe Ephesians 5, which is that there is one church and it is visible - you can see and attend it and be part of it, if you want to be.

[MaxPC]

We believe the most important thing in any person’s life is to believe the good news and be born again.

After people are born again, some will desire to join a church. The Lord will lead some to join our church.

Why would God lead people to join a "lesser church" than the Holdemans?

That’s a good question yet it obviously happens.

I have met sincere believers in Catholic, Baptist, and other types of churches. I think you and I would both agree there are serious flaws there yet the Lord is content for many sheep to be there.

It is not my business what the Lord decides to do since he is sovereign and I am not. We do simply believe Ephesians 5, which is that there is one church and it is visible - you can see and attend it and be part of it, if you want to be.

Well said. Likewise, I do believe that God draws individuals to particular faith groups because that is where they can best grow and mature according to their needs.

[Sudsy]

We do lots of tract work and mission outreach and most of it is focused on a simple gospel message. Most people who read gospel tracts don’t end up coming to our church but might go to another one.

What is the point of that if there is only "one true church?"

We believe the most important thing in any person’s life is to believe the good news and be born again.

After people are born again, some will desire to join a church. The Lord will lead some to join our church.

I very much agree with what I underlined and I wonder how many other Anabaptist groups are involved in outreach ministry believing sharing the 'simple gospel message' is 'the most important thing'.

I shared this before that I was a deacon once in a Baptist church that became a church of drifters meaning that Christians with an evangelistic focus left their churches and came together to join in evangelism. We had Mennonites of sorts, Pentecostals, various Baptists, eternal security believers, lose your salvation believers, United Church folk, premills, amills, postmills, etc, etc. (what I think heaven will consists of) and decided to change our name to 'The New Testament Church In The Twentieth Century'. We got considerable scoffing from other church people as their view of the real NT church was not reflected in ours. And the church grew with the unsaved becoming Christ followers very rapidly.

We actually learned to get along and would kid each other about our secondary beliefs. I have told this story before here as it was the best times in my Christian life to experience this oneness of mission even though we had differing secondary beliefs and individual convictions on practise of our beliefs. It really was amazing and wonderful.

Seems to me a church can go in one of two directions. One, focusing on having a church 'without spot or wrinkle' according to certain criteria of that group or having a church with all kinds of spots and wrinkles, yet with a main focus of reaching the lost. A church that takes the scripture text on excommunicating as the main issue to keep a church 'pure' or a church that believes in letting the wheat and tares grow together and if the tares don't leave, God will sort them out come judgment day.

Perhaps that might be a good topic to work through. Was Paul saying to rip out the tares in a church to keep the church pure and was Jesus saying, no, let them grow up together and God who alone who knows the heart will separate them at harvest time ? Could be an interesting thread.

[Josh]

A church that takes the scripture text on excommunicating as the main issue to keep a church 'pure' or a church that believes in letting the wheat and tares grow together and if the tares don't leave, God will sort them out come judgment day.

Perhaps that might be a good topic to work through.

I think it’s rather obvious the church itself is not supposed to be full of unrepentant sinners. This was one of the main concerns of the original Anabaptists, actually.

[Sudsy]

A church that takes the scripture text on excommunicating as the main issue to keep a church 'pure' or a church that believes in letting the wheat and tares grow together and if the tares don't leave, God will sort them out come judgment day.

Perhaps that might be a good topic to work through.

I think it’s rather obvious the church itself is not supposed to be full of unrepentant sinners. This was one of the main concerns of the original Anabaptists, actually.

Then how do you understand what Jesus said about allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat ?

p.s. Whoops, I meant to underline a comment from a previous post that begins - 'We believe the most important thing' ----------

[HondurasKeiser]

What I tell people is that if you want a church where you can leave it whenever you feel like without any impact to your social life with the people there, and you want a church where the ministers / pastors encourage people to leave and tell them there are no spiritual consequences for doing so - a Holdeman, Amish, or other plain congregation isn’t a good fit for you.

Try the nearest megachurch instead. Or look for a much more liberal plain church like some CMC, BMA, liberal Beachy etc. - but prepare to get hurt by the revolving door of people leaving. The church I first attended as a new believer has half the people on it that it did 9 years ago and almost none of the young people are still there. 2 young people did return as adults after their entire family left the plain world, but only because of a strong influence from a few seeker families and myself. That’s not a future I want for my children.

I think there's something to this idea. Coming from the more evangelical wing of LMC I've watched from afar as my home congregation has essentially emptied out, many landing in non-Mennonite churches. My own parents recently decamped for an Orthodox Presbyterian Church (though my father insists he's still Mennonite). It's terribly sad to watch but at the same time I have to recognize that by degrees I am part of the trend as well. I've observed that there's a desire to "find the right fit" among the evangelical-leaning folk which leads them to church hop and land in a place for a few years before beginning the process again.

That said, I recall reading Peter Hoover's "Radical Anabaptists Today" series and being struck by how willing the various "true radical" protagonists were willing to pick up and move to a different fellowship or community in search of brethren that held similar 'radical' attitudes about, beards for example. These are/were conservative Anabaptists that had no compunction about leaving fellowships and family in search of the "right fit". My LMC family and friends are looking for a fit that centers on preaching, worship-styles and youth groups - Hoover's folk were looking for a fit that focused on lifestyle and physical sacrifices. Both though are perfectly willing to leave and not look back.