Coblentz on Gender Identity

[appleman2006]

The exception should not drive the conversation.

"LGB" (or the more recent "LGBT" or the comprehensive "LGBTQIAPK") is a modern social-political movement. Adding "I" to this movement does not serve people who have birth defects. It does help legitimize the social and political normalization of general sexual deviance for which the modern mental health professions are not allowed to seek a cure and from which a Christian must repent.

These are valid points, but they don't address the question:

We know that God created man is His own image, male and female created He them. My question is, where does this leave intersex people?

That is a question entirely distinct from the church's relationship to "LGBTQIAPK" folk. Actual genetic/physiological Intersexuality is rare enough and complex enough that any church confronting the request for membership by someone with this condition can handle it on an individual basis. Intersexuality has become one of those vehicles by which non-believers and sexual deviants have leveraged their way into "normal" society and the church.

I agree.

[joshuabgood]

I am not convinced that the physical "intersex" is so different from the homosexual proclivities. I think both of them are likely physiological conditions of sorts.

I think I would see them, and I believe this is how Coblentz contextualized it, in a sense as conditions that are the result of the "fallen" world in which we live. However, that is not to say, that people just "decided" to be gay or to be intersex, or that being gay was the result of something that the person did or that "was done to" the person in question. He noted that many folks like this that he has counseled have not come from broken homes, didn't have traumatic childhoods, and weren't abused in anyway.

Instead (listen to the recordings by all means - I don't want to put words in his mouth), he described it more as akin to a physical condition that needed much support. He compared it to the physical needs of his father...who faced a physical handicap, albeit not intersex or homosexuality.

He also urged that these folks should be respected as people just like us. He noted that he refers to them using the pronoun of their choice...though he stopped short of prescribing that.

Like I said, I would highly recommend the talk, I thought it was a very compelling articulation of how an Anabaptist could respond to the issues.

[Hats Off]

I am sorry, Erika, but I can't answer your question. I don't know if I know any intersex people and am not sure that I understand what that means.

[GaryK]

I am not convinced that the physical "intersex" is so different from the homosexual proclivities. I think both of them are likely physiological conditions of sorts.

Intersex conditions are a physical variant of xy/xx. It is not homosexuality. Being intersex does not mean they are homosexuals. It is not a lifestyle choice. It is a result of the Fall.
Again, I have noticed a total reluctance of replies to address the issue of accepting the intersex person as a member of the Christian community. Intersex people did not choose to be intersex. They did not choose their gender. Surgeons and parents did that without their consent and have caused huge psychological damage to the individual which they later have to correct at great expense. Please do your research rather than act on your emotions.

Did surgeons and parents choose your gender for you?

[temporal1]

From Page 2 -

That said, as the OP, I'm returning this thread to a discussion of Coblentz and the Anabaptist view of authentic discipleship as it relates to gender identity as defined in the Bible.

maybe this thread needs a new subject line?
the subject line, OP and responses to it could be moved elsewhere?

Max? are you present?

[GaryK]

Did surgeons and parents choose your gender for you?

God and nature did that for me. I have a female birth certificate if that helps. Again I see a total reluctance to address the issue. Are intersex people accepted by the church. God created them male and female and obviously in some cases a little of both. Just as God must be in order to create man and woman in His image.

Was your original birth certificate female? I'm curious why you are so interested in whether or not intersex people are accepted by the church?

[Soloist]

Erika, I made a break off thread to focus on your questions.
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=588

[temporal1]

an aside ..
when our son was a few weeks old, we decided to change his name.
this was allowed - but, the original name was NOT removed. the county folks simply "dashed" through it, and wrote his new name just above. it worked just fine. the record reflects an accurate picture.

as some states decide to allow birth certificates to be altered due to personal requests, i hope this type of responsible record-keeping continues. i.e., not to erase all of history due to personal requests.

my state is deciding this right now. (more accurate: Chicago career politicians are deciding it.)
i'm not sure if "responsible" record keeping is even part of the decision.
these guys are not known for being "responsible."
still, i hope so.

[Josh]

I would like to emphasise the difference between an IS person (very rare) and a transgendered or TS/TV/CD/nonbinary/genderqueer etc person. The former is an easily diagnosed biological condition. The latter are lifestyle decisions.

[Valerie]

That is not entirely correct. Many intersex people have been misassigned a gender at birth. They go on to transition to the gender they feel more comfortable and identify with. Yes, it is a biological condition but the choice is made to transition. So to say that interesex people are not part of the LGBTI community is wrong. They make a choice, they transition, because that is who they feel they are. As intersex person who is of male presentation go onto transition to present as female that is their choice. A intersex person who presents a female but goes on to transition to male has that choice to make. Many female intersex person have xy chromosomes and vice versa. With mixed chromosomes or any intersex condition it is the intersex person's right to live their lives as they feel is right for them. Gender doesn't determine religion, otherwise we would have a religion that is for females and a religion that is for males. To think otherwise is absurd.
If you check the stats for intersex you will find that it is more common than you think.

This is all so perplexing to me. As we have studied the Holy Scriptures, we really don't see this issue do we? I don't understand how this has become 'increasingly' more common? Is this, as someone brought up earlier, a result of the fall, or somewhat of a last of the Last Days scenario? And why is this seemingly absent in communities where there has been such a focus and upbringing in Christ? I can see that there are babies born like this and I feel really sad for the situation- but how many babies are actually born like this? Why isn't all this mentioned in the Scriptures?