Coblentz on Gender Identity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Valerie
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Valerie »

Erika wrote:Does it really matter if we are to love our neighbours as ourselves? There is no denying that we exist. If God thought it would be a problem He would have done something about it. He obviously assumed that we had the brains to work it out. If you do a google search you will find our existence extending back to antiquity. We have been featured in paintings, in songs, and in history. Also, you will find that intersex is more common than you think. If fact tests now occur which can determine whether a pregnancy is intersex. Sadly, some expectant mothers kill us in the womb. I am sure no one in the church would sanction the murder of unborn intersex children would they?
Also, if you will recall in Galatians, there is neither male nor female, For those who have been baptized we are all one in Christ. For anyone to throw up walls, barriers, divisions, strife, and railing, it shows a lack of knowledge of the scriptures or Christian love. I would suggest love rather than an inquisition. We know where the inquisition led - it was condemned as unchristian.
As the Word of God says, In His image He created....Male and female created He them. To stress a point, an intersex person is more representative of God than a so called 'normal' person. In His image we were created.
Not everything is laid out in the Scriptures . That is why God sent us the Holy Spirit...to throw light on the Word. That Light is love. Shall we stumble in the darkness?
I don't see anyone here throwing up railing in strife about it Erika, just that, well, I am 59 and it's very recent in my life that any of this seemingly became so commonplace, I hope that you can have the same love and patience as people who are trying to understand in light of Scripture, is presented with something that they never have before. I went through my whole life going to school and never saw any of the children seem to have gender confusion at all- didn't even seem to exist so yes, it is fairly new to society in general.
Regarding the passage in Galations, that would be an incorrect interpretation of it which is one of the problems I have with the LGBT group- reinterpreting Scripture to fit their situations- these things should not be! That passage is meaning that salvation is available to all- regardless of their gender or heritage- not to say there is no such thing as male or female- be careful what you teach!
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joshuabgood
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by joshuabgood »

Erika wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I am not convinced that the physical "intersex" is so different from the homosexual proclivities. I think both of them are likely physiological conditions of sorts.

Intersex conditions are a physical variant of xy/xx. It is not homosexuality. Being intersex does not mean they are homosexuals. It is not a lifestyle choice. It is a result of the Fall.
Again, I have noticed a total reluctance of replies to address the issue of accepting the intersex person as a member of the Christian community. Intersex people did not choose to be intersex. They did not choose their gender. Surgeons and parents did that without their consent and have caused huge psychological damage to the individual which they later have to correct at great expense. Please do your research rather than act on your emotions.
You misunderstand...I mean similar in the sense that they are both conditions resulting from imperfections of the physical beings that God had created us to be. A result of the cursed world in which we live. That is all. Not that they are literally the same thing...
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Erika wrote:
Josh wrote:I would like to emphasise the difference between an IS person (very rare) and a transgendered or TS/TV/CD/nonbinary/genderqueer etc person. The former is an easily diagnosed biological condition. The latter are lifestyle decisions.
That is not entirely correct. Many intersex people have been misassigned a gender at birth. They go on to transition to the gender they feel more comfortable and identify with. Yes, it is a biological condition but the choice is made to transition. So to say that interesex people are not part of the LGBTI community is wrong.
This is where the problem comes in. Issues with regards to the LGBT "community" are distinct from the question of membership in a conservative church by an individual with a rare genetic condition. I have no doubt that someone who is authentically intersexed (genetically or morphologically) would be welcome in a Conservative Mennonite church. But if that person also advocates for membership by the broader LGBT, community they would not likely be welcome.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Erika wrote: If you check the stats for intersex you will find that it is more common than you think.
Googling the question, it seems widely held by advocates and activists for intersexuality is as common as 1.7% but the real figure is closer to .018% of the population. (see How common is intersex?)
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Josh
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Josh »

The Bible does refer to this and calls it "eunuchs from birth". It is rare but does happen and there are people with this condition in Conservative Anabaptist communities - along with many other genetic or endocrine disorders. I have met a church member with enough genetic / endocrine dysfunction they can't have children, for example.

This is entirely different from sexual behaviour. God doesn't want us to express our sexuality outside of marriage. Marriage is something ordained for people who are male and female. Male and female are functional designations: people who by appearance at birth are typically people who can perform a male or female reproductive role.

Outside of formation of a family and reproduction, marriage and sexuality don't make sense. There is no marriage in heaven and probably no childbirth either. Our identity is that of believers. Sure, as a human with flesh I also identify as a "35 year old" and "person born in Australia" and "male" but those are not that important.

But I can't change the fact I was born in Australia and it would be exceedingly absurd if I identified as inter-born between Australia and America!
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by MaxPC »

Most of the alleged science being quoted here is badly distorted for political agendas. It's difficult to find but there are studies that have not been funded by political agendas that actually refute the "born this way" mantras, the most notable of which is one conducted out of Johns Hopkins... by an avowed lesbian... who finds no evidence of genetic inclinations to the homosexual lifestyle. The proof of genetics role is simply not there. At this point the faux genetics argument is a bunny trail and needs to be terminated in this thread.

ERIKA: you have another thread opened in which you can get feedback on your issues and problems. I've requested the mods remove your disruptive posts from a thread focused upon Coblentz's discussion of Anabaptist Biblical gender identity.

That said, as the OP, I'm returning this thread to a discussion of Coblentz and the Anabaptist view of authentic discipleship as it relates to gender identity as defined in the Bible.
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Valerie
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Valerie »

Erika wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Most of the alleged science being quoted here is badly distorted for political agendas. It's difficult to find but there are studies that have not been funded by political agendas that actually refute the "born this way" mantras, the most notable of which is one conducted out of Johns Hopkins... by an avowed lesbian... who finds no evidence of genetic inclinations to the homosexual lifestyle. The proof of genetics role is simply not there. At this point the faux genetics argument is a bunny trail and needs to be terminated in this thread.

ERIKA: you have another thread opened in which you can get feedback on your issues and problems. I've requested the mods remove your disruptive posts from a thread focused upon Coblentz's discussion of Anabaptist Biblical gender identity.

That said, as the OP, I'm returning this thread to a discussion of Coblentz and the Anabaptist view of authentic discipleship as it relates to gender identity as defined in the Bible.
Excuse, but intersex people ARE born this way. It is not choice. Intersex conditions were not invented for political reasons, they are a biological reality . You need to get some facts, and stay away from an inquisition mentality as it is not helpful to anyone. As for the definition of gender in the Bible, God them in His image, male and female created He them. God has both male and female attributes. You can a cultural Christian with it's bias or a Bible believing Christian who believes in the Word of God.

Erika, I get very concerned when these groups start twisting Scripture interpretation to fit their agenda-I am seeing this influence on young people, and it is very upsetting to reinvent Scripture interpretation- this leads me to ask you what exactly you mean by "God has both male and female attributes"? Sure there are some characteristics that males and females share, that God has- emotions- love, compassion, anger, jealousy, joy, to name a few- but I am not sure that's what you meant-I'm trying to understand as a Bible believing Christian is conveying when they say this?
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Valerie
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Valerie »

Erika, I think that you have really overamplified/exaggerated people's response to you, you need to read back through these posts and realize you really didn't share very much about 'yourself'. We here in America have been slammed with an agenda by the LGBT activists and how are we to know you personally?
For one thing, I asked you a question to 'understand' what you meant by what you said, instead you turn this into an accusation. Can you not see that you are hurling attacks at posters who are discussing something that has really affected our culture with people that are trying to justify sin and to change laws, and encourage people instead of repenting of sin, to even say certain behaviors are not sin? I don't know what's happening in Australia, but I do know what is happening here. No one seems to me, to be trying to drive YOU away, but I for one do not wish to be forced to accept things I simply do not believe are true.
This is the problem- instead of being able to have dialogue with you, you quickly get on the defense and attack back. My goodness, as Christians we should be able to have a conversation without trying to lay guilt trips on people, are you trying to understand anyone here and why they may feel the way they do?

I am accustomed here in America, in these days we live, for the LGBT group to charge us with 'misinterpreting scripture' as if 'they' now understand Scripture that was interpreted long ago. I have heard this being done over and over and so my question to you was to get clarification on what you meant. I am sorry if you took that personal, I was simply wanting to understand what you meant-

I realize we are made in the image of God and Jesus, who is God incarnate, does not try to convey that God is feminine like some of the Bibles have been changed to imply. Maybe there is way to much focus on this, in your own life, instead of on just loving and worship of God- and loving your Christian community you are blessed with- but again, you told us very little about yourself, your life and then get so offended and accusatory which isn't really any less judgmental, then what you are accusing everyone here for. I hope you can understand that-
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Josh
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Josh »

Erika wrote:It is people like you who drive people like me to suicide. I came in peace with no agenda. I just wanted a place to belong.
Erika, if you feel driven to suicide, that is something I really hope you can talk about with people close to you and also seek good counselling for, both inside and outside of a religious setting.

There are always people who are going to make you feel rejected or not accepted, and all of us struggle with feeling like we don't belong sometimes. It is very important to take care of your health. Many people do struggle with feelings of self harm or suicide when going through hard times. It's okay to seek good help to get through those times.
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Josh
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:ERIKA: you have another thread opened in which you can get feedback on your issues and problems. I've requested the mods remove your disruptive posts from a thread focused upon Coblentz's discussion of Anabaptist Biblical gender identity.

That said, as the OP, I'm returning this thread to a discussion of Coblentz and the Anabaptist view of authentic discipleship as it relates to gender identity as defined in the Bible.
Max, you can request and demand all you want, but as has been stated many times, the OP does not "own" a thread on MennoNet. Of course, you can make a request, and perhaps people will honour that request. But this is not your forum and you don't have the ability to remove posts, demand posts be removed, or silence discussion just because you don't agree with it.

Have you considered starting your own forum?
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