Coblentz on Gender Identity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
GaryK
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by GaryK »

Erika wrote:Actually intersex conditions have nothing to do with 'twins'. And, in contrast to what you say intersex conditions are not that rare. "easily defined biological sex".... Really? If that argument were true then those diagnosed later in life as intersex would greatly disagree with you. They know something is wrong because they don't have a normal puberty or have menses. That is why they go to their Doctors for answers. Those who have MRIs have shown how the structure of the brain is can be vastly different in the transgender and intersex population. You might like to know that the brain cannot be seen at birth. You can't always tell the gender of a person by simply looking between their legs. Ask any intersex woman why they do not menstruate or why they get cramps from a blind uterus. You can't tell that at birth either. The variety from 'normal' are put as high as one in ten. Many are, as you say, not even aware they have a variance. What would you say to a young woman you have been breaking bread with if it suddenly turned out that their Chromosomes were XY? Would you throw her out of your church? Or if an MRI of a young guys brain revealed that 'he' was anatomically female? None of this can shown at birth as it can take years for the condition to reveal itself. I know of one intersex person in Perth who was a boarding school when 'he' suddenly started to develop breasts. He turned out to be an intersex female. I also know of a guy who was an engineer in the army who found out he was actually a intersex female. It is not that easy to determine gender at birth. And just because it is considered rare by uneducated society it does not mean it is appropriate to sweep it under the carpet. That is like putting your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. It is an issue that we conservative folk must address if we are to be taken seriously as thinking folk. Pretending it is not an issue is not a option.
With you mentioning Perth, I'm curious if you are from Australia?
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MaxPC
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Erika wrote:If you wish to pretend that the LGBTI community is just LGBT then you are mistaken. Intersex people consider themselves LGBTI because that is how the health funding, diagnosis, and mental health services are arranged.
"LGB" (or the more recent "LGBT" or the comprehensive "LGBTQIAPK") is a modern social-political movement. Adding "I" to this movement does not serve people who have birth defects. It does help legitimize the social and political normalization of general sexual deviance for which the modern mental health professions are not allowed to seek a cure and from which a Christian must repent.
Amen. Politics and secular social fads rarely reflect the Truth of of God and our discipleship. The Bible tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah are ancient reminders of this fact. The Bible also refers to homosexuality as an abomination. For Christian disciples, sexuality is defined by the Bible in two states: chaste/celibate living and Biblical marriage between one man and one woman. There are no third, fourth, fifth options. If you are a true Christian who believes the Bible you won't have trouble accepting this fact. If you aren't a Christian, you won't understand the Bible and God's Truth and no amount of argument will change that.

BTW, most of the alleged science being quoted here is badly distorted for political agendas. It's difficult to find but there are studies that have not been funded by political agendas that actually refute the "born this way" mantras, the most notable of which is one conducted out of John's Hopkins... by an avowed lesbian... who finds no evidence of genetic inclinations to the homosexual lifestyle. The proof of genetics role is simply not there. At this point the faux genetics argument is a bunny trail and needs to be terminated in this thread.

That said, as the OP, I'm returning this thread to a discussion of Coblentz and the Anabaptist view of authentic discipleship as it relates to gender identity as defined in the Bible.
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silentreader
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by silentreader »

GaryK wrote:
Erika wrote:Actually intersex conditions have nothing to do with 'twins'. And, in contrast to what you say intersex conditions are not that rare. "easily defined biological sex".... Really? If that argument were true then those diagnosed later in life as intersex would greatly disagree with you. They know something is wrong because they don't have a normal puberty or have menses. That is why they go to their Doctors for answers. Those who have MRIs have shown how the structure of the brain is can be vastly different in the transgender and intersex population. You might like to know that the brain cannot be seen at birth. You can't always tell the gender of a person by simply looking between their legs. Ask any intersex woman why they do not menstruate or why they get cramps from a blind uterus. You can't tell that at birth either. The variety from 'normal' are put as high as one in ten. Many are, as you say, not even aware they have a variance. What would you say to a young woman you have been breaking bread with if it suddenly turned out that their Chromosomes were XY? Would you throw her out of your church? Or if an MRI of a young guys brain revealed that 'he' was anatomically female? None of this can shown at birth as it can take years for the condition to reveal itself. I know of one intersex person in Perth who was a boarding school when 'he' suddenly started to develop breasts. He turned out to be an intersex female. I also know of a guy who was an engineer in the army who found out he was actually a intersex female. It is not that easy to determine gender at birth. And just because it is considered rare by uneducated society it does not mean it is appropriate to sweep it under the carpet. That is like putting your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. It is an issue that we conservative folk must address if we are to be taken seriously as thinking folk. Pretending it is not an issue is not a option.
With you mentioning Perth, I'm curious if you are from Australia?
And I'm curious if this is Erika or Erik.
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GaryK
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by GaryK »

silentreader wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Erika wrote:Actually intersex conditions have nothing to do with 'twins'. And, in contrast to what you say intersex conditions are not that rare. "easily defined biological sex".... Really? If that argument were true then those diagnosed later in life as intersex would greatly disagree with you. They know something is wrong because they don't have a normal puberty or have menses. That is why they go to their Doctors for answers. Those who have MRIs have shown how the structure of the brain is can be vastly different in the transgender and intersex population. You might like to know that the brain cannot be seen at birth. You can't always tell the gender of a person by simply looking between their legs. Ask any intersex woman why they do not menstruate or why they get cramps from a blind uterus. You can't tell that at birth either. The variety from 'normal' are put as high as one in ten. Many are, as you say, not even aware they have a variance. What would you say to a young woman you have been breaking bread with if it suddenly turned out that their Chromosomes were XY? Would you throw her out of your church? Or if an MRI of a young guys brain revealed that 'he' was anatomically female? None of this can shown at birth as it can take years for the condition to reveal itself. I know of one intersex person in Perth who was a boarding school when 'he' suddenly started to develop breasts. He turned out to be an intersex female. I also know of a guy who was an engineer in the army who found out he was actually a intersex female. It is not that easy to determine gender at birth. And just because it is considered rare by uneducated society it does not mean it is appropriate to sweep it under the carpet. That is like putting your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. It is an issue that we conservative folk must address if we are to be taken seriously as thinking folk. Pretending it is not an issue is not a option.
With you mentioning Perth, I'm curious if you are from Australia?
And I'm curious if this is Erika or Erik.
Good question. I also wonder what "Mennonite" group this person is with as stated in the profile next to affiliation.
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Signtist
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Signtist »

GaryK wrote: With you mentioning Perth, I'm curious if you are from Australia?
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 210#p14210
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GaryK
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by GaryK »

Signtist wrote:
GaryK wrote: With you mentioning Perth, I'm curious if you are from Australia?
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 210#p14210
Thanks! Didn't think about looking there.
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PeterG
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by PeterG »

Josh wrote:The exception should not drive the conversation.
Wayne in Maine wrote:"LGB" (or the more recent "LGBT" or the comprehensive "LGBTQIAPK") is a modern social-political movement. Adding "I" to this movement does not serve people who have birth defects. It does help legitimize the social and political normalization of general sexual deviance for which the modern mental health professions are not allowed to seek a cure and from which a Christian must repent.
These are valid points, but they don't address the question:
Erika wrote:We know that God created man is His own image, male and female created He them. My question is, where does this leave intersex people?
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lesterb
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by lesterb »

Some friends of ours adopted a baby that had both sets of sex organs, male and female. Is that the kind of scenario we are speaking of here? Or are we speaking of "psychological" issues where the person is fine physically but his/her mind and feelings make them feel as if they were a mixture?

In the case that I'm familiar with, the doctors chose the sex that they felt was best represented in the babies body. That baby is now an adult. I have no problem relating to this situation. I would struggle a lot more if the issue was based on the diagnosis of some psychologist somewhere and ignored the physical evidence the person was born with.


The transgender problem, and even the gay problem is partly self perpetuating. It has become a popular fad to "come out of the closet." The vast majority of these people are "made, not born". Young girls especially are suceptical to such power of suggestion, since they have an inner longing for emotional intimacy with someone. That longing is actually fulfilled the best in Christ and by a godly marriage, but many don't know that and fall for the counterfeit.

I read a post by a young adult who had trans-gender surgery five or six years ago and wished that the doctors had refused to do it. They suffered from extreme psychological difficulties from the transition rather than the "peace" that they expected. They know now that the whole thing was a mirage, but it's too late.
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appleman2006
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by appleman2006 »

lesterb wrote:Some friends of ours adopted a baby that had both sets of sex organs, male and female. Is that the kind of scenario we are speaking of here? Or are we speaking of "psychological" issues where the person is fine physically but his/her mind and feelings make them feel as if they were a mixture?

In the case that I'm familiar with, the doctors chose the sex that they felt was best represented in the babies body. That baby is now an adult. I have no problem relating to this situation. I would struggle a lot more if the issue was based on the diagnosis of some psychologist somewhere and ignored the physical evidence the person was born with.


The transgender problem, and even the gay problem is partly self perpetuating. It has become a popular fad to "come out of the closet." The vast majority of these people are "made, not born". Young girls especially are suceptical to such power of suggestion, since they have an inner longing for emotional intimacy with someone. That longing is actually fulfilled the best in Christ and by a godly marriage, but many don't know that and fall for the counterfeit.

I read a post by a young adult who had trans-gender surgery five or six years ago and wished that the doctors had refused to do it. They suffered from extreme psychological difficulties from the transition rather than the "peace" that they expected. They know now that the whole thing was a mirage, but it's too late.
Very well said.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Coblentz on Gender Identity

Post by Wayne in Maine »

PeterG wrote:
Josh wrote:The exception should not drive the conversation.
Wayne in Maine wrote:"LGB" (or the more recent "LGBT" or the comprehensive "LGBTQIAPK") is a modern social-political movement. Adding "I" to this movement does not serve people who have birth defects. It does help legitimize the social and political normalization of general sexual deviance for which the modern mental health professions are not allowed to seek a cure and from which a Christian must repent.
These are valid points, but they don't address the question:
Erika wrote:We know that God created man is His own image, male and female created He them. My question is, where does this leave intersex people?
That is a question entirely distinct from the church's relationship to "LGBTQIAPK" folk. Actual genetic/physiological Intersexuality is rare enough and complex enough that any church confronting the request for membership by someone with this condition can handle it on an individual basis. Intersexuality has become one of those vehicles by which non-believers and sexual deviants have leveraged their way into "normal" society and the church.
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