ChatGPT Summarizes the Tenets of Anabaptism

[ken_sylvania]

If "promoting" a sinner prevents one from entering the kingdom of heaven then clearly everyone who has promoted Trump's election lies and swindles will also not enter the kingdom of heaven. Which includes a large portion of the people here on MennoNet.

Baloney

It certainly includes Josh who has repeated and promoted Trump's election lies right here on this forum.

Perhaps Josh looms large in your mind, but he's not "a large portion of the people here on MennoNet".

[Ken]

Ken,

Romans 1 specifically talks about those who promote homosexuality:

For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

The New Testament is really clear that those who follow God can’t give approval to practising “debased” things which “ought not to be done” and which are “contrary to nature”.

This is about sin, not sinners. This is not about the person who struggles with homosexual urges. This is about the person who fully affirms and promotes such a person giving in to sin. It is analogous to someone who struggles with beating his side being told, “Go ahead. Indulge yourself. Hit her as much as you want. It’s fine.” Or it is analogous to the preachers who tickled the ears of slave owners, telling them it was OK to buy and own chattel slaves, because the slaves weren’t fully human anyway.

Anabaptism is about following and obeying the clear message of scripture and one of those is that we ought not to uphold and support blatant sin.

I count over 20 sins listed in that passage, many of which occur in every Anabaptist church in the country.

[ken_sylvania]

Ken,

Romans 1 specifically talks about those who promote homosexuality:

For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

The New Testament is really clear that those who follow God can’t give approval to practising “debased” things which “ought not to be done” and which are “contrary to nature”.

This is about sin, not sinners. This is not about the person who struggles with homosexual urges. This is about the person who fully affirms and promotes such a person giving in to sin. It is analogous to someone who struggles with beating his side being told, “Go ahead. Indulge yourself. Hit her as much as you want. It’s fine.” Or it is analogous to the preachers who tickled the ears of slave owners, telling them it was OK to buy and own chattel slaves, because the slaves weren’t fully human anyway.

Anabaptism is about following and obeying the clear message of scripture and one of those is that we ought not to uphold and support blatant sin.

I count over 20 sins listed in that passage, many of which occur in every Anabaptist church in the country.

I would have no expectation that God will accept any persons into heaven who celebrate, encourage, or give approval to the practice of any of those 20 sins.

[Ken]

I would have no expectation that God will accept any persons into heaven who celebrate, encourage, or give approval to the practice of any of those 20 sins.

I look around me and see sin everywhere. Gluttons, liars, coveters, gossips, slanderers, insolent, haughty, boastful, foolish, heartless, ruthless, swindlers, adulterers, greedy, drunkards, revilers, etc. etc. In my own family, in my neighborhood, in every church I have ever attended, in every workplace, and in every group I have ever associated with.

I'm not gay and have never had the slightest gay desires. The notion makes my skin crawl frankly. But I simply do not believe that it is only the gays whose sin rubs off on me if I am around them. And that they are the only ones who God expects me to be bigoted towards. In fact, my own moral code considers sin that causes harm to others to be more grave than sins that are merely internal and affect no one else. So, for example, I would consider an employer whose greed causes him to cheat, exploit, and commit wage theft against his employees to be a bigger sinner than two people in a gay relationship who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Either way, I don't really think it is my place to judge. As Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[ohio jones]

I look around me and see sin everywhere.

2 Cor. 6:17

[ken_sylvania]

I would have no expectation that God will accept any persons into heaven who celebrate, encourage, or give approval to the practice of any of those 20 sins.

I look around me and see sin everywhere. Gluttons, liars, coveters, gossips, slanderers, insolent, haughty, boastful, foolish, heartless, ruthless, swindlers, adulterers, greedy, drunkards, revilers, etc. etc. In my own family, in my neighborhood, in every church I have ever attended, in every workplace, and in every group I have ever associated with.

I'm not gay and have never had the slightest gay desires. The notion makes my skin crawl frankly. But I simply do not believe that it is only the gays whose sin rubs off on me if I am around them. And that they are the only ones who God expects me to be bigoted towards. In fact, my own moral code considers sin that causes harm to others to be more grave than sins that are merely internal and affect no one else. So, for example, I would consider an employer whose greed causes him to cheat, exploit, and commit wage theft against his employees to be a bigger sinner than two people in a gay relationship who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Either way, I don't really think it is my place to judge. As Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Do you believe in heaven? And if you do, do you believe that those who celebrate, encourage, and approve of the 20 sins listed will be welcome there?

[Neto]

I would have no expectation that God will accept any persons into heaven who celebrate, encourage, or give approval to the practice of any of those 20 sins.

I look around me and see sin everywhere. Gluttons, liars, coveters, gossips, slanderers, insolent, haughty, boastful, foolish, heartless, ruthless, swindlers, adulterers, greedy, drunkards, revilers, etc. etc. In my own family, in my neighborhood, in every church I have ever attended, in every workplace, and in every group I have ever associated with.

I'm not gay and have never had the slightest gay desires. .... ...I simply do not believe that it is only the gays whose sin rubs off on me if I am around them. And that they are the only ones who God expects me to be bigoted towards. ....
Either way, I don't really think it is my place to judge. As Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Yes, sin is everywhere. But there are directions in the Scripture regarding how it is to be dealt with. The sin in myself - I am to confess it, and turn away from it. The sin in my fellow humans, in my fellow members of the Body of Christ, my brothers and sisters in the Lord - these I am to urge, encourage, and help toward righteousness. It is not we who "judge" what is sin and what is not, which persistent sins are to be disciplined, while letting others go on unmentioned. We are not to create our own lists of sins. We bow to the Creator of all life and righteousness for that task. And He has done it, and done so clearly (as in the list you quoted from Scripture). While it is true that the Scripture says that "Evil companionship corrupts good behavior", companionship is more than just being around someone, more even than "hanging out", more than friendship. (Failure to rebuke, accepting sin as "OK", that is complicity in the sin, and it makes us responsible for it as well.) Jesus prayed (in the garden) that he was not asking the Father to remove His followers "from the World", but to keep them safe from worldliness. We cannot reach sinners if we will have nothing to do with them. Handing over a tract at arms length is not enough. But accepting or affirming sin cannot be a part of reaching "the sinner" (which we all are as well). Then what is the point of any thirst for righteousness?

"Gay desires" are not the sin - it is the practice of them that is sin. (I would define a "gay person" as one who has these temptations. That is not the same as one who practices this sin in an unrepentant manner. Each of us may experience different temptations, one man is tempted toward lust after a woman, another toward a man. Both are just temptations. It is the persistent practice of either that is open rebellion toward God, a choice for hell over heaven.)

(Oh, and by the way, thanks for fixing the quotation format on one of my previous posts. I messed that up somehow, I suspect by in putting 2 closing quote brackets, but I didn't catch it in proof-reading.)

[Sudsy]

Evangelism and Missions: Anabaptists have historically emphasized the importance of sharing the Christian faith and making disciples. They seek to live out their faith in a way that attracts others to Christ and actively engage in mission work.

Hmmmm, not sure I agree here as I don't see much of this where I live as the various Mennonite communities pretty much don't share their faith and make disciples. I have my doubts that some of the ways of not conforming to the world is living out their faith in a way that attracts others to Christ. Actually, in my obersvations, those who are most involved in evangelism and home missions would be labelled more on the 'liberal' side of sanctification.

This description on Evangelism and Missions really surprised me as it is stated.

So, no one is going to comment on my challenge to these Anabaptist statements on Evangelism and Missions ? One can have this as a core belief but if it is not a practised belief, is it really a core belief ?

[Neto]

Evangelism and Missions: Anabaptists have historically emphasized the importance of sharing the Christian faith and making disciples. They seek to live out their faith in a way that attracts others to Christ and actively engage in mission work.

Hmmmm, not sure I agree here as I don't see much of this where I live as the various Mennonite communities pretty much don't share their faith and make disciples. I have my doubts that some of the ways of not conforming to the world is living out their faith in a way that attracts others to Christ. Actually, in my observations, those who are most involved in evangelism and home missions would be labelled more on the 'liberal' side of sanctification.

This description on Evangelism and Missions really surprised me as it is stated.

So, no one is going to comment on my challenge to these Anabaptist statements on Evangelism and Missions ?

It varies from group to group, both historically and currently. But I think the key word in that quote is 'historically'. In the most dangerous eras of most anabaptist groups, the interest in missions and evangelism has been way up during those "tell and get killed" danger zones, like in the early development era. In the colonies (in New/South Russia, now Ukraine), it was a mixed bag. Some factions were getting themselves in trouble with the authorities by evangelizing outside their own people (it was strictly forbidden by the law under the previlegio), while others weren't even making an effort to evangelize their own children. [During the early decades of the MB congregation I grew up in, around 35% of the offerings went to missionary work. During my later Jr High & HS years (very late 60's, early 70's) there were times when 30 or more people were baptized and accepted as members on one Sunday. Probably every congregation goes through red hot and cool efforts in evangelism, and a lot also depends on the surrounding culture, and their attitudes toward the lack of patriotism in the more conservative Mennonite congregations. During that same period of time, there was also still a lot of anti-German prejudice, and our congregation was known as "the Old German Church". (People in the South, or maybe I should just say Oklahoma, are very friendly, but they also do not easily or quickly forget grudges. The church house was kept under official surveillance during the world wars, and police sometimes came & broke up meetings.)]

[Robert]

So, no one is going to comment on my challenge to these Anabaptist statements on Evangelism and Missions ? One can have this as a core belief but if it is not a practised belief, is it really a core belief ?

I do think it is a core belief. I do think African, Asian, and South American Anabaptists are much better at it.

I know it was something I worked at for over 20 years. We were MCUSA, but I know of several CM churches in Indiana that did well with this. Maple City Chapel in Goshen to name one.

I do agree that we could do a lot better and I think we have at other times. I think currently we are weak in this area.