Vengeance

[MaxPC]

Am seeking the thoughts of practicing Anabaptists here.

Came across an interesting article about the nature of vengeance and that vengeance is a virtue that belongs to God alone. Cited were the following Scriptures:

Luke 18
7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Romans 12
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Romans 13
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

What do you think of this approach to the nature of vengeance?

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Not a practicing anabaptist (seeker looking for an anabaptist church), but to get the ball rolling, I have a few stray thoughts:

(1) The article you linked doesn't take the stance as you imply that it is a virtue "that belongs to God alone". The article makes reference a few times to people meting out vengence.

(2) As pointed out by Paul in the Romans 13 passage you quoted, certain entities (the state, mainly) are designated by God in some way to bear the right and/or duty of vengeance.

(3) What exactly is a virtue, and is it a thing that can belong to God alone? Are not virtues and vices just categories of describing human character by comparing these characters to God/Godliness? Virtues and vices seem in my mind to be a purely human posession.

(4) In any case, using the rubric of virtue/vice, Jesus seems to take this rubric and twist it in the sermon on the mount: "You've heard it said that vengeance is a virtue, but I'm here to tell you it's a vice." (Matthew ch. 6, heavily paraphrased).

[JimFoxvog]

I think Romans 12.19 as quoted is sufficient guidance. Never avenge yourself. Never take revenge.

It may be simplistic, but it is clear scriptural command and I don't see any nuances in it to debate.

[steve-in-kville]

Here is how I feel, and I'm not implying that I am some great saint or have it all together... there have been times where I could have gotten revenge or vengeance or whatever term you want to use. I resisted and didn't and I am glad I walked away from the situation. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but whenever I did choose to "get back" it always bit me in the rear.

To that end, I don't believe in karma, but I believe that God has His reasons for things.

[MaxPC]

Not a practicing anabaptist (seeker looking for an anabaptist church), but to get the ball rolling, I have a few stray thoughts:

(1) The article you linked doesn't take the stance as you imply that it is a virtue "that belongs to God alone". The article makes reference a few times to people meting out vengence.

In the article, Msgr Pope, is clarifying that God alone can decide to pursue vengeance and as the author of perfect justice, He alone can be virtuous as the author of vengeance ... people can be the means by which that justice is carried, but they are to avoid instigating or authoring the act of vengeance.

(2) As pointed out by Paul in the Romans 13 passage you quoted, certain entities (the state, mainly) are designated by God in some way to bear the right and/or duty of vengeance.

I see you are more familiar with the term "designated by God; I use the term "author" in referring to God's action in using people to implement that vengeance. People are the means or tools; God is the author.

(3) What exactly is a virtue, and is it a thing that can belong to God alone? Are not virtues and vices just categories of describing human character by comparing these characters to God/Godliness? Virtues and vices seem in my mind to be a purely human posession.

Virtue refers to moral excellence and when used as an adjective for God's actions, Catholic World speaks to God's perfection in moral excellence.

(4) In any case, using the rubric of virtue/vice, Jesus seems to take this rubric and twist it in the sermon on the mount: "You've heard it said that vengeance is a virtue, but I'm here to tell you it's a vice." (Matthew ch. 6, heavily paraphrased).

I do not see that as "twisting" the rubric. In this example, I see Jesus correcting misconceptions about the true nature of vengeance committed by humans.

I think Romans 12.19 as quoted is sufficient guidance. Never avenge yourself. Never take revenge.

It may be simplistic, but it is clear scriptural command and I don't see any nuances in it to debate.

Straightforward and succinct. Thank you.

[PetrChelcicky]

Hello Max.
reminds to me a Catholic book about "heretics" (Ronald Knx or Chesterton?). The Quakers were treated in a rather benign way - but the author remarked that George Fox registered carefully how everyone who had done damage to him found a bad death. The author was probably correct. It shows that Fox was vengeful in his heart and only dismissed personal vengeance, because vengeance was God's task, not his task.
As I'm used to say in such cases: Humans will be humans, and we must be glad even for minor improvements.

[MaxPC]

Hello Max.
reminds to me a Catholic book about "heretics" (Ronald Knx or Chesterton?). The Quakers were treated in a rather benign way - but the author remarked that George Fox registered carefully how everyone who had done damage to him found a bad death. The author was probably correct. It shows that Fox was vengeful in his heart and only dismissed personal vengeance, because vengeance was God's task, not his task.
As I'm used to say in such cases: Humans will be humans, and we must be glad even for minor improvements.

I agree with you about George Fox and I do think that a need for vengeance, whether executed by oneself or by God still shows spiritual immaturity issues. This vengeance-seeking is indeed human nature and may have, at one time, served a purpose for survival in a primitive environment in which predators (four legged as well as two legged) stalked one's family or clan.

In my perspective, the lesson from Jesus is that not only are we to avoid seeking vengeance, we are also to avoid celebrating it even if the God authored it to deal with an injustice. The reason? It leads our hearts down that dark path of unforgiving bitterness. God knows the fragility of our hearts and our weaknesses. I do believe that is why Jesus told us to walk away and to shake the dust from our feet when others become too entrenched in confrontation.

Relative to this notion is the fact that God created us to learn from our experiences and to avoid the same mistakes in the future: We are responsible for our own actions and willingness to learn - Free Will. Steve's thread about situations and people where we find ourselves in difficulty has some good insights into this. God gave us a brain so it would be good to show our thanks by using it and growing more wise from the mistakes of our past and present. Study of the Bible and prayer with God is the means to stay on that narrow path.