Headcovering Fabric

[Sudsy]

I see God still using women pastors (especially on the mission field) is evidence enough for me that God today calls women to be pastors even though in the early church men had that role.

Just because God uses women doesn't mean they are doing things they way he intended. The Bible is full of examples of God using people who were not always following his principles. The end does not justify the means.

So do you apply that to water baptism also ? God intended all Christians to be immersed in water baptism as we read in the NT but for the sake of convenience or some other reason, man decides to practise another mode. Have they really then been baptised ? Does the end justify the means ?

[Ernie]

I see God still using women pastors (especially on the mission field) is evidence enough for me that God today calls women to be pastors even though in the early church men had that role.

Just because God uses women doesn't mean they are doing things they way he intended. The Bible is full of examples of God using people who were not always following his principles. The end does not justify the means.

So do you apply that to water baptism also ? God intended all Christians to be immersed in water baptism as we read in the NT but for the sake of convenience or some other reason, man decides to practise another mode. Have they really then been baptised ? Does the end justify the means ?

Yes. I think God recognizes baptisms by sprinkling or pouring a bit of water on people's heads but I don't think this is what he intended. As in the case of women pastors, I think people should adjust their practices.

[Valerie]

I see God still using women pastors (especially on the mission field) is evidence enough for me that God today calls women to be pastors even though in the early church men had that role.

Just because God uses women doesn't mean they are doing things they way he intended. The Bible is full of examples of God using people who were not always following his principles. The end does not justify the means.

Sudsy also used the "early Church" but in "actuality" there were no women pastors in over 1900 years of the Church. And most churches do not allow them today although there are certainly other important roles they would not be disobeying Scripture in

[Valerie]

And yet you attend a church where it would seem by my observations on TV that 95%+ women do not wear a head covering. Strange why you would fellowship amongst all these disobedient ladies when you have this strong conviction. How can you trust the teachings of pastor Alistair Begg to allow women to get away with that ? A quote from Alistair - 'It's not so much what goes on her head as what's going on inside her head. It's not so much the physical dimension of it as it is expressive of a whole response to a God-ordained pattern of authority.'

So if a church has a woman lead pastor you think they should 'disperse and go elsewhere', yet if a man lead pastor does not support a literal head covering be worn, then stay with that church until he learns and preaches the truth ?

[/quote]

I disagree with Pastor Begg about the headcovering. He doesn't say he's against it, as you point out what he said. Something he says occasionally is "Keep the playing things the main things, and the main things the plain things". Obviously he doesn't think 1 Corinthians 11 regarding the women's head covering is plain or main. He grew up on a time when women weren't covering, ad did i. But to contend against it seems wrong to me once its been shown to you. Since we now have several Amish attending, im tempted to give him my book.

Even still, it seems "plain" to him women are not to be pastors. We have many associate pastors, all men, all wonderful pastors.

An Anabaptist couple (former Amish) invited us to their church and said I didn't need to wear the covering until I had the understanding of it- because i didn't yet, but o wanted to- what goes on "in" her head hopefully will be reflected in a teachable spirit

[ken_sylvania]

I disagree with Pastor Begg about the headcovering. He doesn't say he's against it, as you point out what he said. Something he says occasionally is "Keep the playing things the main things, and the main things the plain things". ....

He's starting to sound Amish there.....

[Sudsy]

And yet you attend a church where it would seem by my observations on TV that 95%+ women do not wear a head covering. Strange why you would fellowship amongst all these disobedient ladies when you have this strong conviction. How can you trust the teachings of pastor Alistair Begg to allow women to get away with that ? A quote from Alistair - 'It's not so much what goes on her head as what's going on inside her head. It's not so much the physical dimension of it as it is expressive of a whole response to a God-ordained pattern of authority.'

So if a church has a woman lead pastor you think they should 'disperse and go elsewhere', yet if a man lead pastor does not support a literal head covering be worn, then stay with that church until he learns and preaches the truth ?

I disagree with Pastor Begg about the headcovering. He doesn't say he's against it, as you point out what he said. Something he says occasionally is "Keep the playing things the main things, and the main things the plain things". Obviously he doesn't think 1 Corinthians 11 regarding the women's head covering is plain or main. He grew up on a time when women weren't covering, ad did i. But to contend against it seems wrong to me once its been shown to you. Since we now have several Amish attending, im tempted to give him my book.

Even still, it seems "plain" to him women are not to be pastors. We have many associate pastors, all men, all wonderful pastors.

An Anabaptist couple (former Amish) invited us to their church and said I didn't need to wear the covering until I had the understanding of it- because i didn't yet, but o wanted to- what goes on "in" her head hopefully will be reflected in a teachable spirit

To the underlined - Begg just needs a little more time to get on board with women being ordained as pastors.

But it is interesting to me in reviewing the history of women becoming pastors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ordination

In 1911, Ann Allebach was the first Mennonite woman to be ordained in North America. This occurred at the First Mennonite Church of Philadelphia. Then it wasn't until 1978 until another one was.

The Salvation Army always did since 1865 and the Pentecostal Assemblies of God ordained women since their beginning in 1914. Here in Canada the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada since 1984. They are egalitarian in belief as explained here -
https://paoc.org/docs/default-source/ch ... ce4ce26a_4

I really have no conviction that women should wear a material head covering or not and consider it a personal matter between them and the Lord. I don't personally know of those who would contend against it. On the woman pastor side, I'm more of the egalitarian side and in full support of women pastors at home and abroad like Anabaptist Greg Boyd.

But if I lived close to Cleveland Parkside Church, that would be my home church for sure. The woman pastor belief would not be a 'game changer' for me. In my younger years I think I would have really enjoyed a golf game with Alistair.

[Valerie]

And yet you attend a church where it would seem by my observations on TV that 95%+ women do not wear a head covering. Strange why you would fellowship amongst all these disobedient ladies when you have this strong conviction. How can you trust the teachings of pastor Alistair Begg to allow women to get away with that ? A quote from Alistair - 'It's not so much what goes on her head as what's going on inside her head. It's not so much the physical dimension of it as it is expressive of a whole response to a God-ordained pattern of authority.'

So if a church has a woman lead pastor you think they should 'disperse and go elsewhere', yet if a man lead pastor does not support a literal head covering be worn, then stay with that church until he learns and preaches the truth ?

I disagree with Pastor Begg about the headcovering. He doesn't say he's against it, as you point out what he said. Something he says occasionally is "Keep the playing things the main things, and the main things the plain things". Obviously he doesn't think 1 Corinthians 11 regarding the women's head covering is plain or main. He grew up on a time when women weren't covering, ad did i. But to contend against it seems wrong to me once its been shown to you. Since we now have several Amish attending, im tempted to give him my book.

Even still, it seems "plain" to him women are not to be pastors. We have many associate pastors, all men, all wonderful pastors.

An Anabaptist couple (former Amish) invited us to their church and said I didn't need to wear the covering until I had the understanding of it- because i didn't yet, but o wanted to- what goes on "in" her head hopefully will be reflected in a teachable spirit

To the underlined - Begg just needs a little more time to get on board with women being ordained as pastors.

But it is interesting to me in reviewing the history of women becoming pastors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ordination

In 1911, Ann Allebach was the first Mennonite woman to be ordained in North America. This occurred at the First Mennonite Church of Philadelphia. Then it wasn't until 1978 until another one was.

The Salvation Army always did since 1865 and the Pentecostal Assemblies of God ordained women since their beginning in 1914. Here in Canada the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada since 1984. They are egalitarian in belief as explained here -
https://paoc.org/docs/default-source/ch ... ce4ce26a_4

I really have no conviction that women should wear a material head covering or not and consider it a personal matter between them and the Lord. I don't personally know of those who would contend against it. On the woman pastor side, I'm more of the egalitarian side and in full support of women pastors at home and abroad like Anabaptist Greg Boyd.

But if I lived close to Cleveland Parkside Church, that would be my home church for sure. The woman pastor belief would not be a 'game changer' for me. In my younger years I think I would have really enjoyed a golf game with Alistair.

When I was trying to seek out the truth about the head covering us hot out different readings about it including the book I shared about. Church history and early church fathers that were contending for the faith. But lo and behold one day this old TV show came on that I watched as a child. Have not seen it in decades. Here Come the Brides. For nostalgia sake I decided to watch it it was a show about the beginnings of Seattle. It was so odd that this particular show was used to help me see the truth about the head covering. The women on this show we're not covering their heads even though they were dressed very modestly. However in this show, there was a part where they all went into church and every single woman without exception had a fabric covering over their hair to enter into their little church, which was not an Anabaptist Church. So not one single woman entered that church with her head uncovered, but some type of protestant church to be sure.

What you said about women pastors validates what I said you pointed out a couple in the late 1800s which means all the years up until that point there was not one single woman pastor. Do you not see that some of these changes led to the women's lib movement and what we witnessed today in gender confusion are you not connecting any dots here?? Why we're not women satisfied to allow men to continue to be the only pastor in a church? Why did they have to take their place when scripture says that a woman is not to have authority over a man using Eve as the reason partly because the woman was deceived??

You should come to Parkside sometime. I think playing golf is one game you can actually have some good conversations, either with Christians or an opportunity to reach a lost soul while on the course. Most sports you can't actually do that

[Sudsy]

Valerie, my reply to your questions is basically if God calls women to be pastors today then I consider what was said in this early NT church was meant for them in their setting regarding this topic. If you care to believe God was 'locked in' to what was said to this early church or churches to be the rules for all ages to come and women today are not really being called to be pastors, that is your choice. I am going with that PAOC link I gave explaining why this Pentecostal group are egalitarians and what I see God doing for many years now, especially on the mission field, as women take the role of a pastor, a shepherd.

I think we better get back to the headcovering for this thread.

[ohio jones]

But if I lived close to Cleveland Parkside Church, that would be my home church for sure.

It's not that far by jet ski.