Headcovering Fabric

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
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Headcovering Fabric

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:56 am Regarding see through coverings - there is more than uses of the word cover, and one of those meanings can be completely compatible with transparent material. I can have a sheet of glass or a lace material that completely covers a table top, yet you can see through it. Fog can cover the land, yet you can see through it short distances. Or a dish of food can be covered with clear plastic stretch wrap. Cover can just mean that - cover. Which can be distinct and separate from covered from view.
I don’t know of anyone who would wear a transparent piece of shrink wrap on their head as a covering. But I do think that not everyone believes that the word “cover” necessarily has to be one and the same as solid, and not at all transparent.

And for folks who do not believe that there is any modesty component to wearing a covering, and that it is merely a sign, then what is the importance or benefit of a solid material?
Translucent head-coverings were a fad about a century ago. The older Anabaptist ladies didn't go for it. It is still this way in Groffdale Conference churches.
Translucent head-coverings were a new thing in 1800 years of women covering their heads. I find it ironic that conservatives defend the practice and some forbid their women from wearing opaque ones.  
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by steve-in-kville »

The conservative Brethren in our area opt for the solid opaque material. Never really heard why, truth be told.
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Valerie
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Valerie »

I just spoke with an Apostolic woman. She is older, grew up Catholic so she said she remembers how the women had to wear something on their heads in church. But I think black lace baling of some type was acceptable as a covering in the Catholic church because I remember seeing them when I was young on Catholic women. The same woman said that in church the apostolic women do cover their heads, I wasn't sure because when I see them out in public they just wear a little symbolic crocheted almost barrette looking thing on the back of their heads. That must mean they want the symbol to be there outside of church but to have the covering itself during church
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Valerie
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Valerie »

I have a concern.

At our church we go to women don't cover their heads. I think our pastor in a question and answer. When asked didn't give the usual wrong interpretation he gave more of what he said was his opinion that the meaning gets lost today so he wasn't endorsing it.

Sunday night after our evening service I'm at some Amish people that have started attending our church. They still dressed Amish and the women still wore their white Kapp that is very typical in Amish.

I find myself wanting to somehow encourage them to keep covering their heads. They really like our pastor and seem to have the joy of the Lord and people were really reaching out to them I noticed. They will be attending one of our Sunday Bible studies as we have many to choose from, the one they will be in is studying Galatians right now. I often think of Amish when I read galatians.

I've noticed a couple Mennonite or former Mennonites at the church the women still wear the small doily type of symbol on their heads they have not forsaken that.

Part of me wants to give a book to the Bible study leader of the Sunday Bible study that these Amish will be starting to go to because so many Amish when they leave the Amish feel like they don't need to cover their heads anymore. Some still do it probably depends on who they listen to.

Should I say completely out of it? I don't want to step on pastor's toes in case they turn to them about it.

Years ago we asked pastor at the church we went to for 20 years when I started covering my head. We went through the section of first Corinthians 11. He always thought recovering was her hair. His wife does keep her hair long even today when I see them.

I would just feel terrible if these Amish women feel like they can quit covering their heads because of a misunderstanding
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Ernie
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Ernie »

I think it is fine to encourage ladies to continue covering their heads.
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mike
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by mike »

When you decide that the head covering fabric does not actually need to cover or conceal anything, generally what happens is the head covering either becomes a small bit of fabric which is entirely symbolic, or else it disappears entirely.

An article on the head covering that I read a number of years ago shows the logical places you can go once you decide that it is a purely symbolic thing.
Daniel Wallace wrote:Two questions remain. First, how can we justify a different symbol of authority on a woman’s head if the head covering is now a symbol of humiliation? Second, what symbol should we use?

First, the justification comes from several angles. (1) It is in keeping with the spirit of 1 Cor 11 and explicitly with two of Paul’s arguments (nature, convention). If forced to make a choice, it is wiser to take a view that is in keeping with the spirit of the text rather than the letter. (2) The broader spirit of Christianity is clearly against symbols for symbols’ sake. The NT writers do not seem to push ritual and symbol, but reality and substance. (3) The reason, I suspect, that head covering was implemented in the early church was simply that it was an already established societal convention that could be ‘baptized,’ so to speak. That the symbol of head covering fit into Paul’s argument about the headship of God, Christ, and husband, is what seems to have suggested this particular symbol. But even if the symbol loses some of its symbolism, the point needs to remain the same. (That is, whatever symbol a woman is to wear should indicate her submission to her husband and/or [if not married] the male leadership of the church.8) (4) An analogy with the Lord’s Table might help. It is appropriate because there is much that is symbolic in the Eucharist and this celebration is also one of those traditions that Paul handed down (1 Cor 11:17ff.). The symbols of the wine and unleavened bread are taken directly from the Passover. In the first century the Passover involved the use of four mandatory cups of wine, lamb, bitter herbs, unleavened bread. The part of the meal that Jesus turned into the first Lord’s Supper was apparently the third cup of the Passover and the unleavened bread. The lack of leaven was an important symbol, for it represented Christ’s sinlessness. And, of course, real wine was used. Is it necessary for us today to use unleavened bread and real wine? Some churches make this a mandatory practice, others an optional one. Still others would be horrified if real wine were used. Few today have unleavened bread (saltine crackers do have some yeast in them). Should we pronounce an anathema on these folks because they have broken from the tradition--a tradition which has both historical and biblical antecedents? If the implementation of such an important tradition as the Lord’s Supper can be varied, then should not the much less important tradition of the specific role (and garb) of women be allowed some flexibility, too?

Second, if the actual symbol used is not the issue, but what it represents is, what symbol should we use today? There can be no universal answer, simply because the ‘meaningful symbol’ approach is a recognition that conventions change. If we were to canonize one symbol--especially one not mentioned in the Bible--then we would be in danger of elevating oral tradition to the level of Scripture and of externalizing and trivializing the gospel. Having said that, each church needs to wrestle with an appropriate symbol for the present time. Quite frankly, if you (and your church) think that what I’ve suggested in this paper has validity, then the leadership of the church should probably do some creative brain-storming. I would like very much to hear from you!

Still, some controls do exist. As much of the spirit and symbolism of 1 Cor 11 as can be conveyed ought to be. Some have suggested that a wedding ring would be an acceptable symbol. There are some good points to this. It is a symbol that is accepted in large segments of society. A woman would not feel self-conscious wearing a ring. It certainly shows her bond to her husband and therefore picks up the force of 1 Cor 11:9 (co-dependency!) well. However, there are problems with this symbol. The ring is insufficient for the following reasons: (1) using this as the symbol presupposes that only married women are in view; (2) it is not a symbol distinctive of women; married men would also wear such a ring; and (3) unlike a head covering, it is not a very visible symbol.

What other symbols are available? At the present time--and I emphasize the tentative nature of this position--I think the wearing of a modest dress is an appropriate symbol. It does not pick up every correspondence in the passage, but it does do justice to many. In particular--and this is most important--a woman who wears a provocative dress (too feminine) or who pushes the boundaries of propriety in the other direction (such as jeans, business suit9) is often not showing proper submission in her very attitude.10 The symbol thus corresponds to its theological reality very neatly.11
So he makes the rather lame assumption, I think, that just wearing a modest dress is good enough as a symbol of what 1 Cor. 11 is teaching. All of this is to excuse the idea that the passage teaches, for Christians of all time, that a woman should wear an actual head covering or veil of some kind.
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Josh
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 7:40 am I would just feel terrible if these Amish women feel like they can quit covering their heads because of a misunderstanding
Reformed Baptist churches, like many, teach false doctrine and teach against the covering and also teach it’s fine for a woman to have short haircuts.

I would be delighted if they would stop teaching this false doctrine. Valerie, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you think Amish joining a Calvinist church is somehow a good thing.
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Neto
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Neto »

I don't tend to agree with a closely prescribed form or shape, but the disadvantage of accepting any sort of covering is that any type of head gear that happens to be in style at any point in time will also be acceptable. That in itself in not the central problem, but just that if there is not continued spoken teaching on the Why, then when that article of fashion head gear goes OUT of style, the whole thing is lost. In my estimation, this is what happened in the MB congregations. I don't think there ever was a prescribed style or type of head covering in the MB background, or even in the "Big Church" in the colonies (The Kleine Gemeinde may be an exception) - it was a very wide cultural expectation, virtually universal. (Russian cultural practices were generally way "behind" the trends in Europe anyway.) Both of my grandmothers wore hats to church services, and a scarf at home, and, out of conviction, not style. My mom nearly always wore a scarf, and it made a lot of practice sense as well, considering the ever-present Oklahoma wind. But I suspect that the younger women in the MB congregations were never taught much at all about why it was done, so when the fashion of women's hats went out of style - no covering. (As a side note, it's interesting that women's hats are still the style of the "high society" women, but not the average one.)

So this is the way I constantly disagree with myself, arguing the opposite point.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by Heirbyadoption »

steve-in-kville wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 7:28 amThe conservative Brethren in our area opt for the solid opaque material. Never really heard why, truth be told.
Mike touches on this too, but simply put, it's because those who favor opaque material believe the context of the passage and the actual command for women to cover the glory of their long hair suggests literal concealment thereof, rather than only symbolic, and if you can see through the window-screen netting commonly used among conservative Anabaptists, then the thing beneath is obviously not concealed.

And thus have ensued many, many long and passionate arguments over the mean of "cover" in 1 Corinthians 11... :roll:
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mike
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Re: Headcovering Fabric

Post by mike »

RZehr wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:56 am Regarding see through coverings - there is more than uses of the word cover, and one of those meanings can be completely compatible with transparent material. I can have a sheet of glass or a lace material that completely covers a table top, yet you can see through it. Fog can cover the land, yet you can see through it short distances. Or a dish of food can be covered with clear plastic stretch wrap. Cover can just mean that - cover. Which can be distinct and separate from covered from view.
I don’t know of anyone who would wear a transparent piece of shrink wrap on their head as a covering. But I do think that not everyone believes that the word “cover” necessarily has to be one and the same as solid, and not at all transparent.
Using the same reasoning, see-through clothing can be completely compatible with the idea of covering the body.
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