Differences between Holdeman and Beachy Amish

[Judas Maccabeus]

All kinds of church decisions are made through "back doors"

For example, the prohibition on musical instruments. I don't think there is any group that made that decision through the front door so to speak.

What do you mean by that?

JM wrote: "C&MA is definitely drifting. Just okayed women pastors through a “back door” move."

Which I interpreted to mean it was a decision made by leadership through some closed door process that didn't involve something like a vote of the membership which would be "front door" Maybe JM can elaborate what exactly he meant by "back door"

And then Josh commented about how "those back doors sure are pesky"

But the fact of the matter is a VAST number of decisions in all conservative groups (Anabaptist or otherwise) are made through those same "back door" or behind the scenes obtuse decision-making process. Decisions about dress, internet use, music, etc. None of those are made through any sort of "front door" process in which the membership considers the issue and votes, or some such.

Back door move:

15 or so years ago, some women were given the title of “consecrated worker” allegedly because they needed this to work as hospital chaplains or missionary service in some locations. The C&MA has always licensed women as missionaries (my wife among them) but had never allowed them to serve local churches.

10 years ago, these “consecrated women “ are now showing up in local churches, in roles that suspiciously look like assistant pastors. The process becomes more and more like ordaining them. Once again, general counsel is promised that we are not going to ordain women.

5 years ago, one of these ladies is serving as an interim pastor in one of the districts largest churches. This goes on for years if I recall correctly.

Last general counsel, the board of managers abolished the difference between “Ordaination” and “Consecration “ since the process is identical. Identical process should yield identical results. It is only “fair” right? Only remaining restriction is that they cannot hold elder authority.

You can “fix” that at a local level by some clever bylaw changes. (What constitutes elder authority)

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

My Daughter and Son in Law are in one of these churches. They were shocked. I was not.
.

[Ken]

What do you mean by that?

JM wrote: "C&MA is definitely drifting. Just okayed women pastors through a “back door” move."

Which I interpreted to mean it was a decision made by leadership through some closed door process that didn't involve something like a vote of the membership which would be "front door" Maybe JM can elaborate what exactly he meant by "back door"

And then Josh commented about how "those back doors sure are pesky"

But the fact of the matter is a VAST number of decisions in all conservative groups (Anabaptist or otherwise) are made through those same "back door" or behind the scenes obtuse decision-making process. Decisions about dress, internet use, music, etc. None of those are made through any sort of "front door" process in which the membership considers the issue and votes, or some such.

Back door move:

15 or so years ago, some women were given the title of “consecrated worker” allegedly because they needed this to work as hospital chaplains or missionary service in some locations. The C&MA has always licensed women as missionaries (my wife among them) but had never allowed them to serve local churches.

10 years ago, these “consecrated women “ are now showing up in local churches, in roles that suspiciously look like assistant pastors. The process becomes more and more like ordaining them. Once again, general counsel is promised that we are not going to ordain women.

5 years ago, one of these ladies is serving as an interim pastor in one of the districts largest churches. This goes on for years if I recall correctly.

Last general counsel, the board of managers abolished the difference between “Ordaination” and “Consecration “ since the process is identical. Identical process should yield identical results. It is only “fair” right? Only remaining restriction is that they cannot hold elder authority.

You can “fix” that at a local level by some clever bylaw changes. (What constitutes elder authority)

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

My Daughter and Son in Law are in one of these churches. They were shocked. I was not.
.

General Counsel?

I know nothing about C&MA but are you telling me that ATTORNEYS are making theological decisions in that conference and not some council of church elders or church leaders?

BTW, I fail to see the theological distinction between women leading or serving as missionaries versus locally. That distinction certainly isn't anything Biblical.

[ken_sylvania]

JM wrote: "C&MA is definitely drifting. Just okayed women pastors through a “back door” move."

Which I interpreted to mean it was a decision made by leadership through some closed door process that didn't involve something like a vote of the membership which would be "front door" Maybe JM can elaborate what exactly he meant by "back door"

And then Josh commented about how "those back doors sure are pesky"

But the fact of the matter is a VAST number of decisions in all conservative groups (Anabaptist or otherwise) are made through those same "back door" or behind the scenes obtuse decision-making process. Decisions about dress, internet use, music, etc. None of those are made through any sort of "front door" process in which the membership considers the issue and votes, or some such.

Back door move:

15 or so years ago, some women were given the title of “consecrated worker” allegedly because they needed this to work as hospital chaplains or missionary service in some locations. The C&MA has always licensed women as missionaries (my wife among them) but had never allowed them to serve local churches.

10 years ago, these “consecrated women “ are now showing up in local churches, in roles that suspiciously look like assistant pastors. The process becomes more and more like ordaining them. Once again, general counsel is promised that we are not going to ordain women.

5 years ago, one of these ladies is serving as an interim pastor in one of the districts largest churches. This goes on for years if I recall correctly.

Last general counsel, the board of managers abolished the difference between “Ordaination” and “Consecration “ since the process is identical. Identical process should yield identical results. It is only “fair” right? Only remaining restriction is that they cannot hold elder authority.

You can “fix” that at a local level by some clever bylaw changes. (What constitutes elder authority)

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

My Daughter and Son in Law are in one of these churches. They were shocked. I was not.
.

General Counsel?

I know nothing about C&MA but are you telling me that ATTORNEYS are making theological decisions in that conference and not some council of church elders or church leaders?

Oh Ken

[Ken]

Back door move:

15 or so years ago, some women were given the title of “consecrated worker” allegedly because they needed this to work as hospital chaplains or missionary service in some locations. The C&MA has always licensed women as missionaries (my wife among them) but had never allowed them to serve local churches.

10 years ago, these “consecrated women “ are now showing up in local churches, in roles that suspiciously look like assistant pastors. The process becomes more and more like ordaining them. Once again, general counsel is promised that we are not going to ordain women.

5 years ago, one of these ladies is serving as an interim pastor in one of the districts largest churches. This goes on for years if I recall correctly.

Last general counsel, the board of managers abolished the difference between “Ordaination” and “Consecration “ since the process is identical. Identical process should yield identical results. It is only “fair” right? Only remaining restriction is that they cannot hold elder authority.

You can “fix” that at a local level by some clever bylaw changes. (What constitutes elder authority)

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

My Daughter and Son in Law are in one of these churches. They were shocked. I was not.
.

General Counsel?

I know nothing about C&MA but are you telling me that ATTORNEYS are making theological decisions in that conference and not some council of church elders or church leaders?

Oh Ken

The General Counsel of any large organization is the chief legal officer. That is how it is with bigger denominations like the Southern Baptists. For example: https://thebaptistpaper.org/longtime-ge ... s-service/

[Josh]

Try going to google.com and then put in these keywords: “cma denomination general counsel”

[ohio jones]

Back door move:

15 or so years ago

10 years ago

5 years ago

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

Similar timeline as LMC on the same subject, slight differences in terminology.

[Judas Maccabeus]

JM wrote: "C&MA is definitely drifting. Just okayed women pastors through a “back door” move."

Which I interpreted to mean it was a decision made by leadership through some closed door process that didn't involve something like a vote of the membership which would be "front door" Maybe JM can elaborate what exactly he meant by "back door"

And then Josh commented about how "those back doors sure are pesky"

But the fact of the matter is a VAST number of decisions in all conservative groups (Anabaptist or otherwise) are made through those same "back door" or behind the scenes obtuse decision-making process. Decisions about dress, internet use, music, etc. None of those are made through any sort of "front door" process in which the membership considers the issue and votes, or some such.

Back door move:

15 or so years ago, some women were given the title of “consecrated worker” allegedly because they needed this to work as hospital chaplains or missionary service in some locations. The C&MA has always licensed women as missionaries (my wife among them) but had never allowed them to serve local churches.

10 years ago, these “consecrated women “ are now showing up in local churches, in roles that suspiciously look like assistant pastors. The process becomes more and more like ordaining them. Once again, general counsel is promised that we are not going to ordain women.

5 years ago, one of these ladies is serving as an interim pastor in one of the districts largest churches. This goes on for years if I recall correctly.

Last general counsel, the board of managers abolished the difference between “Ordaination” and “Consecration “ since the process is identical. Identical process should yield identical results. It is only “fair” right? Only remaining restriction is that they cannot hold elder authority.

You can “fix” that at a local level by some clever bylaw changes. (What constitutes elder authority)

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

My Daughter and Son in Law are in one of these churches. They were shocked. I was not.
.

General Counsel?

I know nothing about C&MA but are you telling me that ATTORNEYS are making theological decisions in that conference and not some council of church elders or church leaders?

BTW, I fail to see the theological distinction between women leading or serving as missionaries versus locally. That distinction certainly isn't anything Biblical.

That is a spelling error, council, it is referring to the annual denomination wide meeting that serves, in theory as the highest authority in the denomination. If the question was brought up directly “should we have woman pastors” it surely would have failed. Instead the “drip, drip drip” method functionally did the same thing as the sure to fail direct vote.

As to missionaries, they do many things, my nurse wife was one. We see the ministry of a pastor/teacher/elder as being restricted to men. Evangelism is the privilege and responsibility of every member. Licensure, in this context, simply me and that the denomination stands behind and is responsible for that workers efforts.

The “restricted to men” part no longer seems to apply except for elder. Had a chat with my former C&MA pastor, if our church had survived, he would have brought forward a motion to sever ties with the denomination.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Back door move:

15 or so years ago

10 years ago

5 years ago

That is how something is slipped in through the back door.

Similar timeline as LMC on the same subject, slight differences in terminology.

Had a chat with my former pastor, had our church survived, he would have moved to sever ties with the denomination. Promises made, promises broken. Many think that was the objective when the whole “Concecrated Woman” thing began.

[Josh]

I find the term “consecrated woman” concerning. Every church member is consecrated unto the Lord. The ministers and deacons are simply servants chosen for good character they show to serve the church.

Instead what we see in the mainline Protestant circles is a desire by women (and men) to accrue titles so they can lord it over others.

[Ken]

Try going to google.com and then put in these keywords: “cma denomination general counsel”

That brings up this guy. Who was a corporate and estate attorney before taking on the role of General Counsel of CMA: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-friese ... 20LinkedIn