Differences between Holdeman and Beachy Amish

[Chris]

So the dress is sort of similar looking.
That's about all I know.

For Holdeman -
Internet allowed or not?
Television? Music?
Music instruments in the home?
Home education allowed?


Any deep theological differences?

[Josh]

A better question might be what isn’t different!

[Chris]

A better question might be what isn’t different!

Cape dress. Head covering.

[Josh]

So the dress is sort of similar looking.

Holdeman clothes are fairly different. Women avoid skirts and shirts (occasionally a rebellious person will wear this anyway) and handmade their dresses. However they have never worn cape dresses (despite what some academic who interviewed my in-laws claimed in her research paper).

For Holdeman -
Internet allowed or not?
Television? Music?
Music instruments in the home?
Home education allowed?

Internet is allowed but must be filtered. Accountability apps are discouraged. The Apple built in content filter is considered “not good enough”. If the filter is inconvenient or slow, that is the Lord’s way of leading you to be on your phone less.

Television and non-instructional video are not allowed. Instructional video on YouTube is allowed. Some parents struggle with letting their kids watch videos to entertain them but this is strongly looked down on.

Absolutely no music, but some youth struggle. Recordings of a paella singing do seem to be listened to as long as it’s not for entertainment, nor listened to multiple times, and is not professionally produced. Some people have zero conviction about this and do it anyway.

Absolutely no musical instruments at all, anywhere.

Home education is not allowed, period, unless there is some reason the private school does not work (such as when Quebec banned our school during Covid.)

Any deep theological differences?

Not on paper but in practice they are very different. Overall, Holdemans aren’t ex Amish who are seeking to gradually acculturate to mainstream culture.

[Josh]

A better question might be what isn’t different!

Cape dress. Head covering.

? - these two seem pretty different. Holdemans don’t wear cape dresses.

Their head covering practices are different; never on children or unbaptised girls. A plain solid black cap is worn. On Sundays, a kerchief style of covering is worn as the former is not considered a true head covering (as it doesn’t cover the head, but just some hair in a bun).

[Ernie]

Internet is allowed but must be filtered. Accountability apps are discouraged. The Apple built in content filter is considered “not good enough”. If the filter is inconvenient or slow, that is the Lord’s way of leading you to be on your phone less.

Television and non-instructional video are not allowed. Instructional video on YouTube is allowed. Some parents struggle with letting their kids watch videos to entertain them but this is strongly looked down on.

Absolutely no music, but some youth struggle. Recordings of a paella singing do seem to be listened to as long as it’s not for entertainment, nor listened to multiple times, and is not professionally produced. Some people have zero conviction about this and do it anyway.

Absolutely no musical instruments at all, anywhere.

Home education is not allowed, period, unless there is some reason the private school does not work (such as when Quebec banned our school during Covid.)

Are these standards or guidelines? Are they written or oral?

[Josh]

Internet is allowed but must be filtered. Accountability apps are discouraged. The Apple built in content filter is considered “not good enough”. If the filter is inconvenient or slow, that is the Lord’s way of leading you to be on your phone less.

Television and non-instructional video are not allowed. Instructional video on YouTube is allowed. Some parents struggle with letting their kids watch videos to entertain them but this is strongly looked down on.

Absolutely no music, but some youth struggle. Recordings of a paella singing do seem to be listened to as long as it’s not for entertainment, nor listened to multiple times, and is not professionally produced. Some people have zero conviction about this and do it anyway.

Absolutely no musical instruments at all, anywhere.l

Home education is not allowed, period, unless there is some reason the private school does not work (such as when Quebec banned our school during Covid.)

Are these standards or guidelines? Are they written or oral?

Some are written down. Some are unwritten traditions, such as TV. There has never been a conference decision against owning a TV. The feeling is that any sincere church member shouldn’t need a conference decision to tell them owning a TV is wrong.

Internet filter stuff are strong guidelines from the Technology Committee and are written.

Views on non instructional video are in conference decisions concerning “worldly entertainment”. Recently, the Technology Committee issued a statement on TikTok, Pinterest, etc. (eg TikTok has no place in the life of a Christian, but Pinterest can have legitimate used with caution).

Home education is not a written standard, but there is a positive expectation every member will support and participate in the church school.

[Neto]

I hesitate to respond, because I have very little exposure to the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. Beachy, quite a great deal, but all "from the outside". I would say, however, that the main similarity I see is that they both come out of the Amish tradition. There is a wide range of differences within the BAM, but my perception is that there is much less among the different Holdeman congregations. I am not aware of any great number of congregations leaving the Holdeman 'conference', if any at all. (Perhaps a few, over many years? I do not know.) The once strictly Beachy congregation in which my wife grew up (after the age of 12, when her parents left the Amish church) is no longer officially Beachy. (I cannot recall the name of their small 'association of congregations'.)

Both the Amish and the Holdeman church were strongly influenced by some elements of Dutch 'anabaptism', but for the Amish, and through that origin the Beachy, that influenced has all but disappeared, except for in the area of the extension to which the 'ban' is applied. For the Beachy, I would say that there is very little knowledge of, or agreement with, the writings of Menno Simons, or of the Dutch tradition in general. (In fact, when MS' name comes up, it is usually a derogatory comment, and uninformed, ie, false, as well. This is obviously an expression of my own opinion as a Dutch Mennonite, and a 'student of Menno Simons'.)
The Holdeman church experienced a great influx of 'converts' from Dutch anabaptism well after its 'founding'. So it may well now find more identification and agreement with some elements of the teachings of Menno Simons than it could have acquired through its long in years connection through its origin out of the Amish. But maybe I have even this wrong - I think I recall that it came out of the Amish church, but perhaps from the 'Old Mennonite'? But at any rate, its relationship to Dutch Mennonitism is through conversions of Russian Mennonites, not through its beginning.

[Josh]

I would say, however, that the main similarity I see is that they both come out of the Amish tradition.

Holdemans don’t come out of an Amish tradition. John Holdeman was in a Mennonite church in 1859, but most Holdeman adherents today descend from Russian Mennonites who migrated in 1874. Overall, the culture and theology is heavily influenced by Dutch Anabaptism - partly because Dutch writers were the only easily accessible books John Holdeman could get in the 1850s.

In a sense, John Holdeman was someone who “converted” to more Dutch type of thinking (as opposed to Swiss).

[ohio jones]

Recordings of a paella singing do seem to be listened to as long as it’s not for entertainment, nor listened to multiple times, and is not professionally produced. Some people have zero conviction about this and do it anyway.

I think I'd find that entertaining enough to listen to multiple times.