Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Neto »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Neto wrote:I can say from conversations in our committee that at least some people feel strongly that wearing the head covering only for services is an early step which will soon result in the total loss of the practice (and then on to other problems from there).
1 Corinthians parallels men not covering their head with women covering their heads. Does this occur when men take off their hats for worship or prayer, but not the rest of the time?
No, and I don't think their 'argument' holds merit. I think that it is dangerous to build man-made 'fences' around the commands of Christ. (I always think of Eve, telling the Satan that God told them not even to touch the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. That didn't end well, either.)
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Valerie
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:I am familiar with Oasis. They do not practice the veiling consistently even in worship and generally are moving in a more worldly direction. (This is not just Oasis where this kind of change happens - it happens elsewhere.) They also have adopted Pentecostal theology, which is not Anabaptist.

This isn't meant as a criticism - just an observation.

[quoteBy the way, I don't think that if the decision was made to wear one in worship service only, would lead to dropping it altogether- gaining more understanding on it for the meeting together with the assembly in worship, makes it seem more deeply understood]
Pretty much all of us are familiar with a church that relaxed its standards on the veiling and taught it's required for worship only. And the pattern, every single time, is that the younger generation stops wearing it during even worship, despite the best teaching from the pulpit.

Valerie, try to think about what it would take for your daughters and granddaughters to consistently practice the veiling during worship & prayer. Young people often aren't swayed by theological treatises when they are young. A strong culture often helps them stay on the right path, and when they are older (20s), a deeper theological understanding can develop.[/quote]

I understand and see the value in where you (and conservatives) are coming from- don't have time to say much at the moment- but just to correct the Oasis in the beginning had another name- (can't remember it right now) and a former Amish, who became Beachy, had recommended them to me. Originally they didn't cover, so they are a church that has 'picked up' the practice instead of discarding it, but not didn't make it a requirement from leadership- not sure how they handled that part.
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Valerie
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Valerie »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:I am familiar with Oasis. They do not practice the veiling consistently even in worship and generally are moving in a more worldly direction. (This is not just Oasis where this kind of change happens - it happens elsewhere.) They also have adopted Pentecostal theology, which is not Anabaptist.

This isn't meant as a criticism - just an observation.

[quoteBy the way, I don't think that if the decision was made to wear one in worship service only, would lead to dropping it altogether- gaining more understanding on it for the meeting together with the assembly in worship, makes it seem more deeply understood]
Pretty much all of us are familiar with a church that relaxed its standards on the veiling and taught it's required for worship only. And the pattern, every single time, is that the younger generation stops wearing it during even worship, despite the best teaching from the pulpit.

Valerie, try to think about what it would take for your daughters and granddaughters to consistently practice the veiling during worship & prayer. Young people often aren't swayed by theological treatises when they are young. A strong culture often helps them stay on the right path, and when they are older (20s), a deeper theological understanding can develop.
I understand and see the value in where you (and conservatives) are coming from- don't have time to say much at the moment- but just to correct the Oasis in the beginning had another name- (can't remember it right now) and a former Amish, who became Beachy, had recommended them to me. Originally they didn't cover, so they are a church that has 'picked up' the practice instead of discarding it, but not didn't make it a requirement from leadership- not sure how they handled that part.
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Adam wrote:I want to ask a few simple questions about head coverings. I do not want to debate this topic in this thread. Rather I just want simple, straightforward answers to the following questions:

Are there Conservative Anabaptist Churches (or other churches for that matter) that teach and practice that the head covering is only required to be worn during worship services? If so, are such churches found within a particular denomination/conference or are they more independent? In general, how do other Conservative Anabaptist churches feel about churches that teach that the head covering only needs to be worn during worship services?
Nice try but seems like the questions you asked have not been adhered to. And I thought I was bad at bunny trails. :lol:
:oops: I guess I was part of that bunny trailing. But as to the original question, second part: Recently a group of us at our congregation have been meeting with the idea of starting a branch congregation, and I can say from conversations in our committee that at least some people feel strongly that wearing the head covering only for services is an early step which will soon result in the total loss of the practice (and then on to other problems from there). They would say that it is important for a consistent witness in the community to do so. My wife would say that while she does not believe that it is required by Scripture, she would never consider not wearing a veiling during the week. It is a deeply held part of the culture here, and not wearing it would create unnecessary misunderstandings.
I find this interesting - "They would say that it is important for a consistent witness in the community to do so." I really don't see where in scripture it identifies wearing a veil in public as a 'witness'. Does this 'witness' to the primarily unchurched mean that they are the 'true' Christ followers ? Is it a 'witness' to non-veiled Christian women that they are not honouring the headship belief from scripture ? Or what is it ?

Seems to me the focus in the NT wearing anything in public is mainly to be modest and as for our 'witness' it is focused around our good deeds and sharing the Gospel in words.
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Neto
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:
Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Nice try but seems like the questions you asked have not been adhered to. And I thought I was bad at bunny trails. :lol:
:oops: I guess I was part of that bunny trailing. But as to the original question, second part: Recently a group of us at our congregation have been meeting with the idea of starting a branch congregation, and I can say from conversations in our committee that at least some people feel strongly that wearing the head covering only for services is an early step which will soon result in the total loss of the practice (and then on to other problems from there). They would say that it is important for a consistent witness in the community to do so. My wife would say that while she does not believe that it is required by Scripture, she would never consider not wearing a veiling during the week. It is a deeply held part of the culture here, and not wearing it would create unnecessary misunderstandings.
I find this interesting - "They would say that it is important for a consistent witness in the community to do so." I really don't see where in scripture it identifies wearing a veil in public as a 'witness'. Does this 'witness' to the primarily unchurched mean that they are the 'true' Christ followers ? Is it a 'witness' to non-veiled Christian women that they are not honouring the headship belief from scripture ? Or what is it ?

Seems to me the focus in the NT wearing anything in public is mainly to be modest and as for our 'witness' it is focused around our good deeds and sharing the Gospel in words.
No, it is not so much a witness to unbelievers as it is a 'witness' to other 'conservatives' that you have not slid down the hill, or 'gone liberal'. I suppose the sense in which it relates to unbelievers is to help them 'know who you are'. Before I came to a congregation that doesn't approve of any jewelry, I used to wear various types of 'Christian jewelry', but all stuff I had made myself of either wood, leather, or bone. It used to strike me when my daughter would wear a pull-over sweater or t-shirt type pull-over that had a Christian message. She was wearing her faith in bold view, but my 'traditional' way of doing that was not acceptable for me.
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote: No, it is not so much a witness to unbelievers as it is a 'witness' to other 'conservatives' that you have not slid down the hill, or 'gone liberal'. I suppose the sense in which it relates to unbelievers is to help them 'know who you are'. Before I came to a congregation that doesn't approve of any jewelry, I used to wear various types of 'Christian jewelry', but all stuff I had made myself of either wood, leather, or bone. It used to strike me when my daughter would wear a pull-over sweater or t-shirt type pull-over that had a Christian message. She was wearing her faith in bold view, but my 'traditional' way of doing that was not acceptable for me.
Is this saying that this type of conservatism that wears veils all the time view those Christians that don't as all 'liberals' which seems to me to be used as another word for 'worldly' or 'ungodly' ? They are on a slippery slope to who knows where.

I can understand the wearing of a veil in corporate worship but what does the message mean to unbelievers in public regarding 'who you are' ? I think it would be interesting to do a poll on unbelievers to see what they think is the reason for women wearing veils in public. My guess is that the vast majority would see this as an ethnic tradition more than anything else related to Christianity. Does to 'know who you are' intend to mean that they are a separate group of Christians from the majority of professing Christians who don't wear veils in public or something else ? We have lots of 24/7 veil wearing Mennonites in our area but I would need to get further into their specific brand to know just what brand they are. Perhaps the print and/or colour on the cape dress or cap type or something else.

Personally I don't have a problem with wearing things to possibly draw conversation to sharing the Gospel. We had a young person baptised last week that had 'I can do all things though Christ who strengths me' tattooed on his arm. Some day I plan to ask him what kind of conversations this opened up to share the Gospel.
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Joy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Joy »

Yeah, Sudsy, there is a correctional officer at the prison where I go every other week, that has tattooed on his forearm, BELIEVE. I'm curious whether that means to believe God, or in the inherent goodness of man :) , or what....? Haven't had the nerve to ask, though, even though his arm is right in front of me as he checks my ID.
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Ernie
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Ernie »

Ernie wrote: I think foot washing is the "other sort of command" since we are not aware that it was an early church practice. Holy kiss and lifting hands are both found in early church writings indicating this was a practice.
Heirbyadoption wrote:
In addition to 1 Tim 5:10 (which I acede is more of a reference, not a command), I can think of 8 or 9 patristic references right off the bat, though admittedly I'm thinking late 2nd to early 3rd century and on. Would your premise be that footwashing may have developed later as an ecclesial practice rather than being engaged in by the church from day 1?[/quote]
silentreader wrote: So is the 1 Tim 5:10 a reference to the 'ordinance' of feet-washing, or does it refer to the practice of hospitality/service/good works of meeting the need of washing a visitor's feet? In the context I'm inclined to understand it as the latter.
I think it is the latter. And yes, I believe footwashing as a ritual or ordinance developed later as an ecclesial practice. Swiss Anabaptists didn't start practicing this until they got to the new world.
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