Simple Questions About Head Coverings

[Josh]

There are church splits.

Should we really try to hide this?

Well Apostle Paul pointed out it is carnal.
It also implies the Holy Spirit isn't the one guiding everyone but a man, don't you think?

But this isn't a problem unique to Anabaptism nor is it one we can fix. There were attempts to do so, they resulted in the Mennonite Church USA.

My own group hasn't had any splits or divisions since the 1800s. I'm not sure what else you would want us to do - as far as "drop the uniformity" what would that look like? Command sisters to wear worldly clothes?

[Valerie]

There are church splits.

Should we really try to hide this?

Well Apostle Paul pointed out it is carnal.
It also implies the Holy Spirit isn't the one guiding everyone but a man, don't you think?

But this isn't a problem unique to Anabaptism nor is it one we can fix. There were attempts to do so, they resulted in the Mennonite Church USA.

My own group hasn't had any splits or divisions since the 1800s. I'm not sure what else you would want us to do - as far as "drop the uniformity" what would that look like? Command sisters to wear worldly clothes?

I think it was what Charity was attempting to do, and do well it seemed to me but really their clothes & coverings became identifiable as well, in their not wanting to be so 'uniform'-
Oasis Tabernacle in Sugarcreek does not look worldly imo and their women wear a covering that is not uniform- they look modest, definitely not 'worldly' any woman covering that drastically doesn't look worldly- so in a sense it reminds me more of the early church that way-

I'm honestly not trying to be critical here but these things look 'strange' to outsiders in such a way they consider the Holy Spirit's leading or not leading or man's leading etc - to have to explain all this to folks who first get exposed to it is somewhat weird to me- if you live in an area where there is only 1 or 2 'types' of Anabaptist sects it isn't so obvious- but it is here in the area we live.

Not everyone on here agrees with the group you are in now, or all Mennonites & Amish would turn to it, wasn't their origin a split in itself? I am not sure-

[Josh]

Yes. We split from the General Conference Mennonites in the 1800s. We have experienced unity since then.

We can't worry or get focused on what other churches are doing or judge them. We just try to do the best we can in our own group and strive for unity and consistency. For what it's worth we are by far the largest conservative Mennonite group; the only larger plain group is the Old Order Amish. (Apostolic Christian Church is about the same size as us.)

Considering that the conference we left in the 1800s now ordains openly homosexual ministers, I'd say that the split back then was a good decision. The original reason Holdeman left was over issues of immorality being overlooked in the congregation, and then he was excommunicated when he kept on bringing this issue up many times. (The book "God and Uncle Dale" describes similar events that happened in the 1950s in the Mennonite Church.)

[Valerie]

Yes. We split from the General Conference Mennonites in the 1800s. We have experienced unity since then.

We can't worry or get focused on what other churches are doing or judge them. We just try to do the best we can in our own group and strive for unity and consistency. For what it's worth we are by far the largest conservative Mennonite group; the only larger plain group is the Old Order Amish. (Apostolic Christian Church is about the same size as us.)

Considering that the conference we left in the 1800s now ordains openly homosexual ministers, I'd say that the split back then was a good decision. The original reason Holdeman left was over issues of immorality being overlooked in the congregation, and then he was excommunicated when he kept on bringing this issue up many times. (The book "God and Uncle Dale" describes similar events that happened in the 1950s in the Mennonite Church.)

Thank you, I just had to explain 'that' denomination to a friend who stated all Mennonites do not cover. Now she understands.

[Sudsy]

Same old point - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.

[Josh]

Same old point - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.

It's not being ignored, Sudsy, but this is a point you make over and over, but that's one verse that is communicating something quite specific about how the writer wants men to pray. "Lifting up holy hands" is not described as a tradition nor as an ordinance, or something the writer is rebuking the church to which he is writing for not obeying.

1 Corinthians 11 is different. It is extremely clear that Paul is describing a tradition he already laid down for the church, and is rebuking them for not following it. It is a lot more than just 1 verse. And right after that, he talks about communion. I don't know of anyone who thinks the bread & cup are optional symbols (other than Quakers I guess) or just cultural things that we don't need to bother with today.

[RZehr]

Same old point - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.

I apologize if you've answered this elsewhere: Do you practice lifting your hands in prayer yourself? Does your church promote this?

[Sudsy]

Same old point - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.

It's not being ignored, Sudsy, but this is a point you make over and over, but that's one verse that is communicating something quite specific about how the writer wants men to pray. "Lifting up holy hands" is not described as a tradition nor as an ordinance, or something the writer is rebuking the church to which he is writing for not obeying.

1 Corinthians 11 is different. It is extremely clear that Paul is describing a tradition he already laid down for the church, and is rebuking them for not following it. It is a lot more than just 1 verse. And right after that, he talks about communion. I don't know of anyone who thinks the bread & cup are optional symbols (other than Quakers I guess) or just cultural things that we don't need to bother with today.

OK, if the lifting of hands is not a tradition or ordinance or a rebuke, then is it still not a command ? Seems the following verses are taken quite literally regarding how women should be " I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

So, why do some Anabaptists, likely the church you attend, apply a literal application to what women are to do and yet not men ? Notice what I bolded, the word 'likewise'.

[Sudsy]

Same old point - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.

I apologize if you've answered this elsewhere: Do you practice lifting your hands in prayer yourself? Does your church promote this?

Some people in our MB church lift up their hands during worship but praying ? Seldom. Do I, when I pray, no, but there are various things I don't do that are in the form of a command in the NT. My point is about cherry-picking (hey, spelled it right this time) which commands and instructions are for all Christians for all times. Our Anabaptist church does not promote or discourage veil wearing, nor does it promote or discourage lifting hands in prayer. That seems more consistent to me.

[silentreader]

Same old point - Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored.