Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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silentreader
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by silentreader »

Just for interest's sake, from a non-Anabaptist source, but a man, so maybe not credible, tying in 1Timothy 2:8 with the previous verses:
The Old testament saints frequently prayed lifting up their hands (cf. 1 Kings 8:22; Neh. 8:6; Pss. 63:4; 134:2; 141:2; Isa. 1:15). But Paul's emphasis here is not on a particular posture for prayer. The hands symbolize the activities of life, thus holy hands represent a holy life. This is a prerequisite for effective prayer (cf. Ps. 66:18) Holy translates hosios, which means "unpolluted," or "unstained by evil." Those who pray for the lost must not be characterized by wrath and dissension. They must be holy in heart and deed.


From the New Testament Commentary on 1 Timothy by John MacArthur Jr.
The NASB is used as the Bible translation.
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Hats Off
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Hats Off »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Sudsy wrote:But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
Yes, because of our great Redeemer and Saviour, the great Mediator, we must come to prayer with holy hands, free from anger and disputing. God will not accept our prayers if they are offered in any other way.
Does this mean you believe we should pray with hands raised? Just quickly, I think you are saying what I am thinking - that it is an attitude of meekness. I think of the two men praying; the Pharisee standing on the street corner, mentioning all his good works while the Publican smote himself upon the breast (note: his hands weren't raised to the sky). Jesus said this man was justified, not the other.
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:Just for interest's sake, from a non-Anabaptist source, but a man, so maybe not credible, tying in 1Timothy 2:8 with the previous verses:
The Old testament saints frequently prayed lifting up their hands (cf. 1 Kings 8:22; Neh. 8:6; Pss. 63:4; 134:2; 141:2; Isa. 1:15). But Paul's emphasis here is not on a particular posture for prayer. The hands symbolize the activities of life, thus holy hands represent a holy life. This is a prerequisite for effective prayer (cf. Ps. 66:18) Holy translates hosios, which means "unpolluted," or "unstained by evil." Those who pray for the lost must not be characterized by wrath and dissension. They must be holy in heart and deed.


From the New Testament Commentary on 1 Timothy by John MacArthur Jr.
The NASB is used as the Bible translation.
Makes sense in context but I wonder why the paraphrased versions don't change the wording here to avoid this being considered a posture ? They could have replaced that phrase with 'sending up holy words'. I find it interesting and puzzling how he links this explanation to praying for the lost which is spoken about just prior to this.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by ken_sylvania »

Hats Off wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Sudsy wrote:But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
Yes, because of our great Redeemer and Saviour, the great Mediator, we must come to prayer with holy hands, free from anger and disputing. God will not accept our prayers if they are offered in any other way.
Does this mean you believe we should pray with hands raised? Just quickly, I think you are saying what I am thinking - that it is an attitude of meekness. I think of the two men praying; the Pharisee standing on the street corner, mentioning all his good works while the Publican smote himself upon the breast (note: his hands weren't raised to the sky). Jesus said this man was justified, not the other.
I really don't think the focus of this phrase is on the literal height men's hands when they pray. There are plenty of references in scripture to lifting up our hearts to God, and I really never think of them as a command to physically lift up our hearts in any special way.
That being said, if you've never done so, I would encourage you to actually pray sometime with upraised hands. I can't really explain the effect.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by ken_sylvania »

The word "therefore" convinces me there must be a connection with the immediately preceding thought, but I'm not entirely sure how. I have some ideas but not certainty.
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silentreader
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:Just for interest's sake, from a non-Anabaptist source, but a man, so maybe not credible, tying in 1Timothy 2:8 with the previous verses:
The Old testament saints frequently prayed lifting up their hands (cf. 1 Kings 8:22; Neh. 8:6; Pss. 63:4; 134:2; 141:2; Isa. 1:15). But Paul's emphasis here is not on a particular posture for prayer. The hands symbolize the activities of life, thus holy hands represent a holy life. This is a prerequisite for effective prayer (cf. Ps. 66:18) Holy translates hosios, which means "unpolluted," or "unstained by evil." Those who pray for the lost must not be characterized by wrath and dissension. They must be holy in heart and deed.


From the New Testament Commentary on 1 Timothy by John MacArthur Jr.
The NASB is used as the Bible translation.
Makes sense in context but I wonder why the paraphrased versions don't change the wording here to avoid this being considered a posture ? They could have replaced that phrase with 'sending up holy words'. I find it interesting and puzzling how he links this explanation to praying for the lost which is spoken about just prior to this.
Notice the middle part, "the hands symbolize the activities of life...holy hands represent a holy life". I think one of the things he is saying, (and this references the paragraphs in the commentary following the one I quoted) is that
one who prays evangelistic prayers for the lost is most effective if he is practising holiness in his own life.
Notice also that he does not deny the posture, but reads the main focus to be on the holiness.
That focus is kind of what I would expect from Paul.
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Re: Simple Questions About Prayer

Post by ohio jones »

So what does "without wrath/anger and doubting/quarreling" mean and how does it relate to this context? Isn't the inward condition of the heart at least as important as the outward position of the hands? Is this something that is commanded of us (or just the men?) or can it be ignored as freely as Sudsy ignores the first part of the verse, the following verse, and this post? :)
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by MattY »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote: Okay.
While your point is taken, it is a bit difficult for myself to take this argument as serious when you don't even believe the validity of the argument you are making. Why should I listen to your case for lifting hands, when you don't do so? And I believe that your solution is actually remove the veil, not get us to lift hands. You don't care about lifting hands, because you aren't doing it. Or are you seriously contemplating doing so, along with promoting the veil?
I don't say this with a mean tone at all.
What I currently do or not do, imo, has nothing to do with what scripture says to do and that too is not meant in a mean tone. I like to explore why we believe what we believe. Also, I never said anything about 'lifting the veil' or am suggesting that. As my wife, who reads all these posts, pointed out, men seem to be keen on how women should obey but not so keen when it is about themselves. I think in this comparison, she is right. I have no need to promote or discourage the veil wearing but I do believe, in context, this is about corporate praying and not a requirement in daily adornment. Our teaching pastor is a previous Pentecostal pastor turned Anabaptist and I plan to pick his beliefs on both of these subjects in our next coffee time.

But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
I don't think "lifting holy hands" to pray is analogous to the passage in 1 Cor. 11 about the veiling. If I may suggest, the proper analogy you're looking for comes right after the passage about the veiling, for Paul is talking to them about the traditions or ordinances that he has taught them. If the veiling is not necessarily for today, then logically, it would seem, neither is Communion. Maybe we should stop observing that, and be like the Quakers. (Or not). :) (I don't want this to be read as if I'm speaking with an angry tone).

I tentatively agree with silentreader's and John MacArthur's interpretation of "lifting up holy hands", and with Josh's comment about it - that it is never laid down as a specific tradition or ordinance. But I also think there might be another of the traditional Anabaptist "7 ordinances" that's more analogous to the brief instruction of "lifting up holy hands", one that could be interpreted in the same basic way. That would open another discussion though.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Seems quite obvious that the verses discussing veiling and lifting of hands are on totally different wavelengths.
There's much authority in the instruction to veil (creation order, Angels, nature, and disgrace); we see nothing of the sort in the verses surrounding the lifting of hands.

since everyone else is saying it, allow me: im not intending to sound angry 8-)
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Neto »

buckeyematt2 wrote: I don't think "lifting holy hands" to pray is analogous to the passage in 1 Cor. 11 about the veiling. If I may suggest, the proper analogy you're looking for comes right after the passage about the veiling, for Paul is talking to them about the traditions or ordinances that he has taught them. If the veiling is not necessarily for today, then logically, it would seem, neither is Communion. Maybe we should stop observing that, and be like the Quakers. (Or not). :) (I don't want this to be read as if I'm speaking with an angry tone).

I tentatively agree with silentreader's and John MacArthur's interpretation of "lifting up holy hands", and with Josh's comment about it - that it is never laid down as a specific tradition or ordinance. But I also think there might be another of the traditional Anabaptist "7 ordinances" that's more analogous to the brief instruction of "lifting up holy hands", one that could be interpreted in the same basic way. That would open another discussion though.
After I shut down last night, I thought of this other "sort of command", and I suspect that it is the same one Matt is talking about here. But I'll go ahead & open the can of worms, because it is commonly taught as an ordinance (at least in our congregation), and as a command of Scripture - "the holy kiss". The context of this "command" seems to be of a similar type as the "command" to "lift holy hands in prayer".

But on to my main thought last night. We as humans are made up of a single being. Regardless of whether one takes a dichotomist or trichotomist view of human make up (or a singularity view as I do), I think we can agree that there is a very close tie between the body and the 'soul', or 'spirit'. So the postures of prayer do something in our innermost being, there is some sort of communication going on, and so kneeling or prostrating oneself (or raising the hands) produces a corollary response on the spiritual level. But there are as many injunctions to kneel or 'fall on your face' as there are to lift hands, so the thing that bugs me about those who try to get the congregation to do the latter is that they never ask the people to kneel. (Falling on your face would not work in the public setting, but I think that all of these are proper expressions in private prayer, including, dare I say, dancing.)

[Edited to add: I am not a woman, but I would suspect that wearing a veiling of sufficient size that one would be aware of it being there would also produce this same type of corollary response in the spiritual plane.]
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