Simple Questions About Head Coverings

[Josh]

We thought we would be ok because we knew a couple there. They are more common in Australia so I will let Josh fill in the blanks, but the mainstream media calls them a cult.

We did not, and still do not know its exact affiliation, but if it quacks like a duck......

J.M.

The Exclusive Brethren and the Open Brethren are both worldwide.

In Australia the Exclusive Brethren became fairly well established and basically function as an extremely closed society now. They do the same in the U.K., and actually went and hired a P.R. agency to improve their public image, complete with glossy brochures and a modern looking website.

The Open Brethren split with the Exclusive Brethren, so generally their two meeting locations aren't that far apart, but sometimes one or the other of the two went extinct. Where I live in Ohio, the Open Brethren meet. They refer to themselves as just "Christians" and their meeting place as a "Gospel Hall".

I found out a girl 18 years of age or so who went to a Bible study I was a part of grew up in the Open Brethren and attended there regularly. I didn't have the foggiest idea. She basically dressed up for church on Sunday with no real understanding of why they did so, hat and all. When we discussed 1 Cor. 11 in our Bible study, it was a completely new concept to her and she did not connect it to the Open Brethren's practice at all.

[Josh]

Of particular note about the Exclusive Brethren is that they believe nobody can achieve salvation outside of membership in their specific church. This is not the same at all as what groups like Holdemans, Old Order Amish, Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, and so forth believe, who believe to varying degrees they are the one true visible church, but that salvation can be found through believing in and obeying Jesus and the Bible, and that such does happen outside of their church.

[Sudsy]

I see prayer also as a time of communing with God. And since we read in the scripture to pray without ceasing it seems good to keep biblical application consistent with how much we desire to commune with God.

Just a comment on the argument about a head covering or not because we are to pray without ceasing. I don't believe this is referring to an on-going praying as we live our lives. Rather to pray without ceasing, to me, means don't give up until you receive an answer. Jesus said to go into a private area to pray and He got alone at night in a private prayer time with the Father. I think we can talk and listen to the Holy Spirit throughout our day for guidance but I wouldn't put this in the same category as prayer that causes us to act upon our heads being covered or not.

I had an uncle that would stop whenever He was asked to do something and would say a prayer asking God if it was OK or not. God should we paint this room grey ? God should I go to the store now ? God is it OK if I have a piece of gum ? If he wore a hat (can't recall if he did) his hat would be on and off all day long. I don't think this is what is meant by pray without ceasing. I don't feel uncomfortable with wearing a hat when in on-going conversation with God but when I stop and set aside a special time to pray, then I remove my hat.

Others thoughts on this ?

[Wade]

I see prayer also as a time of communing with God. And since we read in the scripture to pray without ceasing it seems good to keep biblical application consistent with how much we desire to commune with God.

Just a comment on the argument about a head covering or not because we are to pray without ceasing. I don't believe this is referring to an on-going praying as we live our lives. Rather to pray without ceasing, to me, means don't give up until you receive an answer. Jesus said to go into a private area to pray and He got alone at night in a private prayer time with the Father. I think we can talk and listen to the Holy Spirit throughout our day for guidance but I wouldn't put this in the same category as prayer that causes us to act upon our heads being covered or not.

I had an uncle that would stop whenever He was asked to do something and would say a prayer asking God if it was OK or not. God should we paint this room grey ? God should I go to the store now ? God is it OK if I have a piece of gum ? If he wore a hat (can't recall if he did) his hat would be on and off all day long. I don't think this is what is meant by pray without ceasing. I don't feel uncomfortable with wearing a hat when in on-going conversation with God but when I stop and set aside a special time to pray, then I remove my hat.

Others thoughts on this ?

This can easily go legalistic in both direction it looks like...

[Neto]

.... Those sisters that tend to cover only for worship or prayer, at least in my experience, do so with an emphasis on the veiling as a "devotional" covering or a "prayer" covering, and definitely as a sign/symbol instead of as an obedient action of literal concealment of their long hair, rather than being rooted primarily in, and taught based upon, the perpetual Divine principle of headship and the subsequent command to conceal the woman's physical glory (of her long hair). This view also significantly de-emphasizes the responsibility of men as taught in Paul's particular teaching. I apologize if that strays too far from your intended discussion; it just seems prudent to understand what we are talking about.

I started to make a response to this a couple of times yesterday, but I hoped someone else would say something. I know this has been hashed out here (or at least on Menno Discuss) before, but I personally at least do not see anything anywhere in Scripture that teaches that a woman needs to 'cover her glory' (her hair). This is one of the really confusing things for me, as one coming from a non-distinctive dress Mennonite background - why do so many of the Swiss Brethren groups think that it is a HAIR covering, instead of a HEAD covering? Can anyone tell me when that idea was put forth, or developed? And if it IS a hair-covering, then the only ones around here (Holmes Co, Ohio) who do it right are the Swartzentrubbers. I don't want to start an argument about this, I just thought that for the sake of others who might read this thread, it should be mentioned. Otherwise I'd just continue to let it go.

[Valerie]

When we go to the Haiti Benefit Auction, it is not just OO men who wear a hat- there were almost as many men distinctive uniform hats among the various Anabaptists sects at the auction, as there were women- I think MAYBE the German Baptists men wear a small black hat? Anyone?

Since you ask - The German Baptist Old Conference has gotten much stricter in the last few years, essentially requiring their brethren to wear hats and sisters to wear bonnets when in public (even disciplining for it in various congregations), though occasionally you'll see a few brave or semi-progressive souls without one on. You will see significantly less among the German Baptist New Conference folks wearing one unless the weather calls for it, along the same vein as LesterB's comments. GB hats are usually larger brimmed than Menno ones (3-4" inch brims instead of 1-2.5"), and often flat crowned.

Thank you- then I was assuming wrong I think- perhaps the hats I saw (they seemed to be small brimmed black straw hats) were Mennonite and not German Baptists- I think it is really confusing at an Anabaptist event where it draws all the different sects together at once (with the exception of the strictest Amish like Swartzentruber who don't generally get involved in these) to know whose who- among the men- the women are easier to identify which sect of Anabaptism they are in by their dresses and their coverings- the men, not so much (except for the Amish are pretty obvious by their beards no matter which sect within the Amish they are in, they all are pretty plain, and all have bears and wider brim hats).
The first time I attended these events like the Mennonite Relief Auction and the Haiti Benefit Auction I was totally unprepared for seeing so many different types of 'uniform' dress & coverings I was thrown by it at first, haven't really learned yet about the varieties (going back probably 14 years)

[Josh]

Would it help if we wore name tags?

How on earth is the entire Anabaptist world supposed to synchronise its practices? In America my church uses black veils, in Africa and Russia they wear blue. There are good reasons in each country for that tradition.

[Valerie]

Would it help if we wore name tags?

How on earth is the entire Anabaptist world supposed to synchronise its practices? In America my church uses black veils, in Africa and Russia they wear blue. There are good reasons in each country for that tradition.

Personally, I feel that having each sect wear uniform regulated matching headcoverings and the men's hats being uniform among the various Anabaptists sects only emphasizes sectarianism which Jesus taught against. There may be a unity 'at large' but it reminds me of what Evangelicals say "keep the main things the main things" or focus on the Essentials, not on the Non Essentials" so that we will not seem so divided.
Yes I have explained this before that in my heart, I feel this can make outsiders feel there is more confusion than anything else, more divisions, church splits- it's all emphasized by this- the early days of Anabaptism, this would not have been the case at all. If you think I am alone on this, my Mennonite friend (former Amish) claims Holmes County to be the most mixed up Christianity in the world. I would say some of friends born and raised in the Anabaptist faith have tried to discourage me from focusing on Anabaptism- maybe this explains more
I don't mean to offend by this observation but I am certain I would not be the only one viewing it this way- I think that Wayne Weaver's Church "Oasis Tabernacle" has kept much of Anabaptist 'essential' doctrines but recognized the need to drop the uniformity. I can appreciate his heart about this. Someone else on here brought his church up too so I wonder if there is more recognizing the problem with this?

[Josh]

There are church splits.

Should we really try to hide this?

[Valerie]

There are church splits.

Should we really try to hide this?

Well Apostle Paul pointed out it is carnal.
It also implies the Holy Spirit isn't the one guiding everyone but a man, don't you think?