Simple Questions About Head Coverings

[Neto]

Just after my wife & I married we lived in South Dallas for one school year, while she finished up SIL (for the non-WBT people, that is the linguistics training course). We attended a Plymouth Brethren congregation, and the practice there was that the women who did not wear a hat (or a veiling like my wife) put some type of head covering on when they came in, or for those who covered their faces as well, only for prayer. (I don't know a great deal about this group as a whole, so I don't know how they would fit in terms of being anabaptist.)

They are not Anabaptist, would more resemble a IFB church with a plurality of elders rather than a single pastor. VERY big on dispensationalism and OSAS. The more conservative ones cover during services, the less conservative ones not so much.

If you asked me when my old church closed, this is where I would have expected we would have wound up. Some of these also can be the most unfriendly churches around. You almost need an invitation to visit. We did, and we were largely ignored.

J.M.

Interesting. The people at the one we attended were all very friendly. Maybe because it was in a large city? (Dallas-Fort Worth) That's where I first herd the hymn "Like a River Glorious", and I can still see the music director as he led the song - total joy. It was a small congregation, and the pastor was an Arab-Israeli Christian.

[Valerie]

Just after my wife & I married we lived in South Dallas for one school year, while she finished up SIL (for the non-WBT people, that is the linguistics training course). We attended a Plymouth Brethren congregation, and the practice there was that the women who did not wear a hat (or a veiling like my wife) put some type of head covering on when they came in, or for those who covered their faces as well, only for prayer. (I don't know a great deal about this group as a whole, so I don't know how they would fit in terms of being anabaptist.)

They are not Anabaptist, would more resemble a IFB church with a plurality of elders rather than a single pastor. VERY big on dispensationalism and OSAS. The more conservative ones cover during services, the less conservative ones not so much.

If you asked me when my old church closed, this is where I would have expected we would have wound up. Some of these also can be the most unfriendly churches around. You almost need an invitation to visit. We did, and we were largely ignored.

J.M.

Interesting. The people at the one we attended were all very friendly. Maybe because it was in a large city? (Dallas-Fort Worth) That's where I first herd the hymn "Like a River Glorious", and I can still see the music director as he led the song - total joy. It was a small congregation, and the pastor was an Arab-Israeli Christian.

We have to be so careful not to judge whole denominations by personal experiences, there are always exceptions, we have found, in every sect of Christianity that we have visited or considered-

[JimFoxvog]

But it seems ridiculous to think I can't pray to God when working outside on sunny or cold days, and that women shouldn't talk to God when in the shower.

1 Corinthians 11 is the beginning of a discussion of practices when you come together to meet as a church. See 11.17 and 14.26. The head covering rules for men and women are parallel and are for our meeting together. Anything more is a church tradition. We can honor and respect these traditions so long as we honor and respect those with different traditions.

I've been to a number of churches, and often do not pay great attention to the brand name my brothers and sisters are gathering under. Therefore I don't know it this understanding and practice would be in a group that would be considered "Conservative Anabaptist."

[Wade]

I see prayer also as a time of communing with God. And since we read in the scripture to pray without ceasing it seems good to keep biblical application consistent with how much we desire to commune with God.

But it seems ridiculous to think I can't pray to God when working outside on sunny or cold days, and that women shouldn't talk to God when in the shower.

I didn't mean to seem to imply that and agree with you.
I think it needs to stay practicable but one needs to be careful with a biblical application only being that or it soon isn't applied at all... The underlying principles can always be "worn," but neither is that any reason to disregard an instruction from scripture especially when it is easily applied.

[Hats Off]

I have asked the question about men being covered more than once; I always feel as though I should not wear my hat when driving so I am free to pray. I am told that our hat does not count - it is a weather protection. If we need to pray, there is nothing wrong with praying with our hat on our head. I am still not comfortable with this idea of praying while covered.

No offence intended, HO, but in my opinion in your (OOM) setting both the black hat for men and the black bonnet for women have become a cultural or denominational identifier, and neither of them has anything to do with the principle behind 1Cor 11.

I think most of us would agree with you there. And that is why they can say that wearing the hat and praying need not be a problem.

[Josh]

For people who wear nonconformed, distinctive attire, things like hats, kapps, suspenders, broadfalls, cape dresses, and so forth don't have very much to do with 1 Co. 11, as these things often survive and keep being worn despite almost no teaching on 1 Co. 11 at all.

When I was in a Midwest church, if a visitor asked someone about why women wear kapps at church the normal answer was "Well we are Mennonites", not an explanation based on 1 Co. 11.

[Heirbyadoption]

When we go to the Haiti Benefit Auction, it is not just OO men who wear a hat- there were almost as many men distinctive uniform hats among the various Anabaptists sects at the auction, as there were women- I think MAYBE the German Baptists men wear a small black hat? Anyone?

Since you ask - The German Baptist Old Conference has gotten much stricter in the last few years, essentially requiring their brethren to wear hats and sisters to wear bonnets when in public (even disciplining for it in various congregations), though occasionally you'll see a few brave or semi-progressive souls without one on. You will see significantly less among the German Baptist New Conference folks wearing one unless the weather calls for it, along the same vein as LesterB's comments. GB hats are usually larger brimmed than Menno ones (3-4" inch brims instead of 1-2.5"), and often flat crowned.

[Heirbyadoption]

But it seems ridiculous to think I can't pray to God when working outside on sunny or cold days, and that women shouldn't talk to God when in the shower.

1 Corinthians 11 is the beginning of a discussion of practices when you come together to meet as a church. See 11.17 and 14.26. The head covering rules for men and women are parallel and are for our meeting together. Anything more is a church tradition. We can honor and respect these traditions so long as we honor and respect those with different traditions.

I've been to a number of churches, and often do not pay great attention to the brand name my brothers and sisters are gathering under. Therefore I don't know it this understanding and practice would be in a group that would be considered "Conservative Anabaptist."

With respect, it bears pointing out that this is but one interpretation, and certainly not one that most Mennonites (at least on the moderate to conservative part of the scale) would share, and in fact many would strongly disagree with, based on the same Scripture passage. Just a thought. But as Adam requested, this particular thread isn't for debate.

Adam, a separate thought with some bearing here, though many of those in view might not articulate it this way, or even think this far through it. Those sisters that tend to cover only for worship or prayer, at least in my experience, do so with an emphasis on the veiling as a "devotional" covering or a "prayer" covering, and definitely as a sign/symbol instead of as an obedient action of literal concealment of their long hair, rather than being rooted primarily in, and taught based upon, the perpetual Divine principle of headship and the subsequent command to conceal the woman's physical glory (of her long hair). This view also significantly de-emphasizes the responsibility of men as taught in Paul's particular teaching. I apologize if that strays too far from your intended discussion; it just seems prudent to understand what we are talking about.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Just after my wife & I married we lived in South Dallas for one school year, while she finished up SIL (for the non-WBT people, that is the linguistics training course). We attended a Plymouth Brethren congregation, and the practice there was that the women who did not wear a hat (or a veiling like my wife) put some type of head covering on when they came in, or for those who covered their faces as well, only for prayer. (I don't know a great deal about this group as a whole, so I don't know how they would fit in terms of being anabaptist.)

They are not Anabaptist, would more resemble a IFB church with a plurality of elders rather than a single pastor. VERY big on dispensationalism and OSAS. The more conservative ones cover during services, the less conservative ones not so much.

If you asked me when my old church closed, this is where I would have expected we would have wound up. Some of these also can be the most unfriendly churches around. You almost need an invitation to visit. We did, and we were largely ignored.

J.M.

Interesting. The people at the one we attended were all very friendly. Maybe because it was in a large city? (Dallas-Fort Worth) That's where I first herd the hymn "Like a River Glorious", and I can still see the music director as he led the song - total joy. It was a small congregation, and the pastor was an Arab-Israeli Christian.

We attended one of these when we were in language school and enjoyed it immensely as well. Did this group have Jordanian connections?

If it does it relates to the Jordanian group the above does not apply as it is an "open" church.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

They are not Anabaptist, would more resemble a IFB church with a plurality of elders rather than a single pastor. VERY big on dispensationalism and OSAS. The more conservative ones cover during services, the less conservative ones not so much.

If you asked me when my old church closed, this is where I would have expected we would have wound up. Some of these also can be the most unfriendly churches around. You almost need an invitation to visit. We did, and we were largely ignored.

J.M.

Interesting. The people at the one we attended were all very friendly. Maybe because it was in a large city? (Dallas-Fort Worth) That's where I first herd the hymn "Like a River Glorious", and I can still see the music director as he led the song - total joy. It was a small congregation, and the pastor was an Arab-Israeli Christian.

We have to be so careful not to judge whole denominations by personal experiences, there are always exceptions, we have found, in every sect of Christianity that we have visited or considered-

Of note is that i used the word SOME which was quite intentional. You could find one like the one Neto (and we in Jordan did) or you could wind up finding your way into one of these:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymout ... ian_Church

We thought we would be ok because we knew a couple there. They are more common in Australia so I will let Josh fill in the blanks, but the mainstream media calls them a cult.

We did not, and still do not know its exact affiliation, but if it quacks like a duck......

J.M.