Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Same old point ;)- Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored. :P
If this is how it is ignored, my guess is that you must be a man. :P
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silentreader
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Same old point ;)- Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored. :P
If this is how it is ignored, my guess is that you must be a man. :P
Just making the point. :mrgreen:

Old saying: what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander....and it works both ways.
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Josh
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

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"Lifting up holy hands" is never laid down as a specific tradition or ordinance, just as specifics about apparel are not laid out. The general principle is.

1 Co. 11 gets quite specific about the veiling and communion.
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Neto
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Neto »

re: head covering & lifting hands during prayer
They are similar in this respect: Both make you feel rather conspicuous if you are the only one doing it. [My Theology prof, a Christian Jew, taught the veiling in class (at the non-Mennonite college where I graduated). Some girls began practicing it, but I think they felt very conspicuous. I would personally lift hands more often, but it makes me conscious of others around me rather than being conscious of God, so I pretty much only do it when I am alone. I do think that "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer" sounds like a pretty clear teaching. (I Tim 2:8)]
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Josh
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Josh »

A church I visit on occasion has a pastor who believes this is a literal command, so when visiting there, I lift my hands as well when we are praying. This teaching is fairly common in charismatic services as well.

Some of my old friends and my parents' friends will (without any malice intended) judge how spiritual a congregation is by how many hands are lifted. "I could tell they are getting more free, I saw about half of the people lifting their hands."

When I was young and grew up in a Charismatic church, it was obvious you wanted to be spiritual and obvious that spiritual people lifted their hands, so I used to do this too. It had absolutely no relevance at all to me to "praying without wrath and dissension".
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:"Lifting up holy hands" is never laid down as a specific tradition or ordinance, just as specifics about apparel are not laid out. The general principle is.

1 Co. 11 gets quite specific about the veiling and communion.
So, those specific areas mentioned (fancy hairdos, gold, jewelry, expensive clothes) are examples of areas that draw the wrong kind of attention or are immodest (lacking humility) and the attention getter for women should be first and foremost their good works. A woman could avoid all these prideful attention getters and any other ones not mentioned yet miss the point that in their place they should be known for their good deeds which is how they should reflect godliness. If this is what you are saying, I agree.

However, the "lifting up holy hands" is not altered in the versions of scripture I have looked through and I agree with Neto this sounds like a pretty clear teaching. Is it therefore a practise, a command, to be ignored or read into as an attitude and not a literal posture ? You seem to be shirking from accepting this as a literal posture commanded for men when they pray. Paul did not give reasons for why men should lift their hands in prayer as I believe he took it as being a norm not requiring further explanation like what he gave in 1 Cor 11 regarding a head covering. Like when you fast, as Jesus said. Fasting was considered a norm.

Regarding Neto's comment on being people conscious by doing a practise few if any others are not doing - me too, and even during worship I hesitate and am not as free as others to lift my hand in worship. But if it was the norm and we were all doing as it reads, we would not feel conspicuous.
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RZehr
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Same old point ;) - Anabaptists, generally, have much concern about women and how they need to obey the "head piece" (most are not head coverings, imo) and men with their 'hats off' when praying, yet 1 Timothy 2:8 says "Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." and it is quickly passed over as perhaps a cultural practise to lift up our hands in prayer everywhere. If everywhere means everywhere then I guess saying grace before a meal in restaurant would be included. Haven't seen or heard of Anabaptist men lifting up their hands every time in prayer whether inside or outside of the local church. Not a very consistent way of obeying scripture, right ?

And I suspect, as usual, this post will be ignored. :P
I apologize if you've answered this elsewhere: Do you practice lifting your hands in prayer yourself? Does your church promote this?
Some people in our MB church lift up their hands during worship but praying ? Seldom. Do I, when I pray, no, but there are various things I don't do that are in the form of a command in the NT. My point is about cherry-picking (hey, spelled it right this time) which commands and instructions are for all Christians for all times. Our Anabaptist church does not promote or discourage veil wearing, nor does it promote or discourage lifting hands in prayer. That seems more consistent to me.
Okay.
While your point is taken, it is a bit difficult for myself to take this argument as serious when you don't even believe the validity of the argument you are making. Why should I listen to your case for lifting hands, when you don't do so? And I believe that your solution is actually remove the veil, not get us to lift hands. You don't care about lifting hands, because you aren't doing it. Or are you seriously contemplating doing so, along with promoting the veil?
I don't say this with a mean tone at all.
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

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RZehr wrote: Okay.
While your point is taken, it is a bit difficult for myself to take this argument as serious when you don't even believe the validity of the argument you are making. Why should I listen to your case for lifting hands, when you don't do so? And I believe that your solution is actually remove the veil, not get us to lift hands. You don't care about lifting hands, because you aren't doing it. Or are you seriously contemplating doing so, along with promoting the veil?
I don't say this with a mean tone at all.
What I currently do or not do, imo, has nothing to do with what scripture says to do and that too is not meant in a mean tone. I like to explore why we believe what we believe. Also, I never said anything about 'lifting the veil' or am suggesting that. As my wife, who reads all these posts, pointed out, men seem to be keen on how women should obey but not so keen when it is about themselves. I think in this comparison, she is right. I have no need to promote or discourage the veil wearing but I do believe, in context, this is about corporate praying and not a requirement in daily adornment. Our teaching pastor is a previous Pentecostal pastor turned Anabaptist and I plan to pick his beliefs on both of these subjects in our next coffee time.

But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
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RZehr
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote: Okay.
While your point is taken, it is a bit difficult for myself to take this argument as serious when you don't even believe the validity of the argument you are making. Why should I listen to your case for lifting hands, when you don't do so? And I believe that your solution is actually remove the veil, not get us to lift hands. You don't care about lifting hands, because you aren't doing it. Or are you seriously contemplating doing so, along with promoting the veil?
I don't say this with a mean tone at all.
What I currently do or not do, imo, has nothing to do with what scripture says to do and that too is not meant in a mean tone. I like to explore why we believe what we believe. Also, I never said anything about 'lifting the veil' or am suggesting that. As my wife, who reads all these posts, pointed out, men seem to be keen on how women should obey but not so keen when it is about themselves. I think in this comparison, she is right. I have no need to promote or discourage the veil wearing but I do believe, in context, this is about corporate praying and not a requirement in daily adornment. Our teaching pastor is a previous Pentecostal pastor turned Anabaptist and I plan to pick his beliefs on both of these subjects in our next coffee time.

But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Post by ken_sylvania »

Sudsy wrote:But lets not skirt the issue. Is raising up holy hands in prayer a command to be obeyed, or not ?
Yes, because of our great Redeemer and Saviour, the great Mediator, we must come to prayer with holy hands, free from anger and disputing. God will not accept our prayers if they are offered in any other way.
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