Mennonite Nazi War Crim Dies in bed In Canada

[Jeff Altweg]

Another oddity in this sordid history ,is that as the Nazis drove their way through Ukraine, they came upon this enclave of several hundred thousand, mostly,blue eyed, blond haired, fair skinned ,German speaking people..(Russian Mennonites) ..exactly what Hitler believed a superior race looked like.....They were ordered from Berlin to do whatever they could ,for them, many joined what looked like a winning movement as it drove further into Russia .....There's still large populations of these same people throughout parts of Canada today, though much assimilation into the General population has taken place ,

[Pelerin]

And there weren't any Soviet war criminals in Allied hands where they could be prosecuted.

But if you want to get serious about prosecuting Russian war criminals you will have another chance after the Ukraine war is over. There will be plenty of war crimes to prosecute. And many of the most well-documented war crimes in all of human history.

Again, they would have to be conquered to charge them. I don’t really care and there may be countries Russians can no longer freely travel to after the war

And also the whole idea of war crimes prosecutions was largely invented at Nuremberg. It’s not like there was any kind of existing framework for what to do about war criminals who are out of reach of the prosecutors. For that matter, the International Criminal Court is only twenty years old. Are there any examples before then off someone being internationally charged for war crimes without the expectation they could actually be prosecuted?

[Soloist]

Rarely does the victor hold themselves accountable. There have been several military leaders and presidents in our country guilty of war crimes. Not saying they were as bad or equivalent to the Germans during WW2.

Of course what constitutes guilt or not is in question, none of these people with 1 exception (I think he was hung) were charged with any crime.

[Josh]

Another oddity in this sordid history ,is that as the Nazis drove their way through Ukraine, they came upon this enclave of several hundred thousand, mostly,blue eyed, blond haired, fair skinned ,German speaking people..(Russian Mennonites) ..exactly what Hitler believed a superior race looked like.....They were ordered from Berlin to do whatever they could ,for them, many joined what looked like a winning movement as it drove further into Russia .....There's still large populations of these same people throughout parts of Canada today, though much assimilation into the General population has taken place ,

Jeff,

I’m not sure how “assimilated” my sons or my wife are, but yes, there are many descendants of Russian Mennonites in America and Canada, including a majority of my own household. I am not sure what relevance eye, skin, or hair colour has; virtually everyone in Ukraine is light skinned to this day whether Russian, Ukrainian, Mennonite, or something else, although in my household we have a majority of brown eyes and red hair.

If an army comes through and doesn’t slaughter you, most people would treat that as a blessing. Would you prefer the Mennonites had picked up arms for the Soviets instead? Should they go fight for Russia in the present-day war? I should remind you that the Ukrainian nationalists sided with the Germans against the Soviets.

[Ken]

And there weren't any Soviet war criminals in Allied hands where they could be prosecuted.

But if you want to get serious about prosecuting Russian war criminals you will have another chance after the Ukraine war is over. There will be plenty of war crimes to prosecute. And many of the most well-documented war crimes in all of human history.

Again, they would have to be conquered to charge them. I don’t really care and there may be countries Russians can no longer freely travel to after the war

And also the whole idea of war crimes prosecutions was largely invented at Nuremberg. It’s not like there was any kind of existing framework for what to do about war criminals who are out of reach of the prosecutors. For that matter, the International Criminal Court is only twenty years old. Are there any examples before then off someone being internationally charged for war crimes without the expectation they could actually be prosecuted?

The first Geneva Convention which established the rules of war (violations of which would be considered war crimes) was written and signed in 1864. It was it was significantly revised in 1906, 1929, and finally 1949.

The Nuremburg trials didn't so much invent the notion of war crimes. International rules of war were established 80 years earlier. But yes, Nuremburg was the first major example of them being enforced and prosecuted in the wake of a war. So it was the first example of war criminals actually being held accountable to an international court of law.

[Josh]

It should be the obvious that the victors in a war will accuse and prosecute the losers for heinous crimes whilst covering up and excusing their own evil behaviour.

It behooves the rest of us not to participate in this folly.

[Neto]

Another oddity in this sordid history ,is that as the Nazis drove their way through Ukraine, they came upon this enclave of several hundred thousand, mostly,blue eyed, blond haired, fair skinned ,German speaking people..(Russian Mennonites) ..exactly what Hitler believed a superior race looked like.....They were ordered from Berlin to do whatever they could ,for them, many joined what looked like a winning movement as it drove further into Russia .....There's still large populations of these same people throughout parts of Canada today, though much assimilation into the General population has taken place ,

In the later German retreat from the Soviet onslought, many people from the colonies were forced to leave with the Germans. Not all went willingly. Also, check out the history of the decade before the war, the Holodomor, genocide by starvation. Although my own ancestors had left the Russian Empire 60 to 70 years before the German invasion of the USSR, these are my people. I have personally met a former Nazi of Mennonite background. He left the USSR with the Germans as they retreated, and was soon captured by the Allied forces, and sent to a concentration camp. It was there that he began to read the Bible that his mother had pressed upon him as he left home, and there that he became a Christian. When I met him, he was a missionary in South America. I also met two sons of another former Nazi of Dutch Mennonite descent who, after coming to Christ, eventually moved to Peru, where he met and married a Mennonite girl and they served there as Bible translators. (We are actually not German, but Dutch.) While we lived in Brazil I met an elderly German man who showed us pictures of himself beside some apparently high officials in the Nazi air force.

So maybe this Canadian man really was a "war criminal". But I will just point out that "enlistment" was not always voluntary. Yes, you had a choice, enlist or be shot. These men were DESCENDANTS of Mennonites, but remember that if they were 20 years old at the time of the German invasion, they were born after the Communist take-over of Russia. The government forbid anyone under the age of 18 or so from attending any religious services. If they found out that parents were teaching their children about God, they could be taken from them, or the parents might be taken out & shot.

[appleman2006]

Since this guy lived and worked in my backyard I have been following this case quite closely for about 30 years. One thing I find of interest is that his Mennonite culture was at least to my knowledge never mentioned in news articles that I read. While I have no doubt this was his cultural background I doubt he was a practising Mennonite. I may be wrong.
As I understand it he was never even charged here in Canada with war crimes. He was charged and found guilty of lying primarily by omitting to record his military experience on his immigration papers. The thing kept being appealed over and over again and I guess there is a sense where eventually he won as his only goal was to avoid deportation.
He had a lot of support in the community largely because he was seen as a honest hardworking man who had used his considerable talents to benefit a lot of people in the area. And yes the government’s hypocrisy was often pointed out in that had they gone after every person who lied to get into Canada a lot more people would have been found guilty. That being said I have no doubt that his being part of the SS as early as 1941 means he was not an innocent bystander in the war. Even if he only translated as he always claimed he was not innocent. That being said knowing wha I know about what his early life must have been like being born just a few years after the revelution in Russia and at 17 suddenly being offered a way out of the misery he had grown up in I am pretty slow to throw stones. It is easy for all of us to say we would have acted differently. I would like to think I would have but…..
The guy has died. He has faced the ultimate judge. I am quite happy to leave it there.

[appleman2006]

Another oddity in this sordid history ,is that as the Nazis drove their way through Ukraine, they came upon this enclave of several hundred thousand, mostly,blue eyed, blond haired, fair skinned ,German speaking people..(Russian Mennonites) ..exactly what Hitler believed a superior race looked like.....They were ordered from Berlin to do whatever they could ,for them, many joined what looked like a winning movement as it drove further into Russia .....There's still large populations of these same people throughout parts of Canada today, though much assimilation into the General population has taken place ,

In the later German retreat from the Soviet onslought, many people from the colonies were forced to leave with the Germans. Not all went willingly. Also, check out the history of the decade before the war, the Holodomor, genocide by starvation. Although my own ancestors had left the Russian Empire 60 to 70 years before the German invasion of the USSR, these are my people. I have personally met a former Nazi of Mennonite background. He left the USSR with the Germans as they retreated, and was soon captured by the Allied forces, and sent to a concentration camp. It was there that he began to read the Bible that his mother had pressed upon him as he left home, and there that he became a Christian. When I met him, he was a missionary in South America. I also met two sons of another former Nazi of Dutch Mennonite descent who, after coming to Christ, eventually moved to Peru, where he met and married a Mennonite girl and they served there as Bible translators. (We are actually not German, but Dutch.) While we lived in Brazil I met an elderly German man who showed us pictures of himself beside some apparently high officials in the Nazi air force.

So maybe this Canadian man really was a "war criminal". But I will just point out that "enlistment" was not always voluntary. Yes, you had a choice, enlist or be shot. These men were DESCENDANTS of Mennonites, but remember that if they were 20 years old at the time of the German invasion, they were born after the Communist take-over of Russia. The government forbid anyone under the age of 18 or so from attending any religious services. If they found out that parents were teaching their children about God, they could be taken from them, or the parents might be taken out & shot.

I had not read this post when I posted but thank you for pointing out some of the historical facts I have thought about but did not mention. If any of you say that you could have grown up in those circumstances and then made bettr choices well good for you. This of course does not excuse it. It should just give us pause to realize that hindsight always makes things more black and white.

[Ken]

So maybe this Canadian man really was a "war criminal". But I will just point out that "enlistment" was not always voluntary. Yes, you had a choice, enlist or be shot. These men were DESCENDANTS of Mennonites, but remember that if they were 20 years old at the time of the German invasion, they were born after the Communist take-over of Russia. The government forbid anyone under the age of 18 or so from attending any religious services. If they found out that parents were teaching their children about God, they could be taken from them, or the parents might be taken out & shot.

All young German men were subject to enlistment, including men of Germanic ancestry in occupied territories like Ukraine. Which meant you were sent into some branch of the regular armed forces. Army, Air Force, Navy, etc. But the SS was an separate elite all-volunteer force and the paramilitary wing of the Nazi party, not the armed forces of the German state as was the case with the regular army. You had to be a hard-core card-carrying true believer Nazi to even get into the SS. They were selective and you had to meet both their physical and political standards. There is no chance he was just innocently drafted into the SS. And he was regular SS. he wasn't some innocent civilian who just happened to be dragooned into working for them which also happened.

Late in the war there were enlistees sent as replacement troops for shattered Waffen SS divisions, especially on the eastern front. But those were just regular infantry and armor divisions fighting alongside the regular army. The special SS Einsatzgruppen or death squad companies (they never numbered more than a few thousand) were something completely different. And by the later half of the war when Germany was in retreat on all fronts they were mostly disbanded and absorbed into regular army or Waffen SS divisions as indeed happened to Oberlander.