Atonement model?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Fidelio
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by Fidelio »

AnthonyMartin wrote:Here's a take on "made to be sin" that I found meaningful. Seemed to have some applicability to this discussion.

Full disclosure, this is my blood brother.

[video][/video]

I am not convinced. There is considerable support for the underlying word sin in "made him to be sin for us" (1 Corinthians 5:21 KJV) to be translated "a sin offering." This would square with Romans 8:3,
"For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,"

Clarke's Commentary says of 1 Corinthians 5:21,
For he hath made him to be sin for us - Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.

In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה chattaah and חטאת chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin.
Source (scroll down) https://www.biblehub.com/niv/2_corinthians/5-21.htm
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AnthonyMartin
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by AnthonyMartin »

Could you clarify what it is that you are not convinced of? Which aspect is not consistent with the sin offering references above?
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Fidelio
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by Fidelio »

AnthonyMartin wrote:Could you clarify what it is that you are not convinced of? Which aspect is not consistent with the sin offering references above?
Here he talks about Jesus being made sin, discounting that the meaning could be "sin offering":
https://youtu.be/aiYlb7ckmX0?t=1355

Much hinges on how one interprets this verse, and I believe "sin offering" is the correct interpretation based on Romans 8:3, which to keep the context I should have quoted in KJV:
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
Also, Isaiah 53:10, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. "

Here he turns to the penal theory of atonement: "He who had been God in judgement, was not the object of God's judgement."
https://youtu.be/aiYlb7ckmX0?t=1737
A sin offering is not being judged, but is an appeasement, as noted in Ephesians 5:2 (KJV),
“And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.”

I think what happens often is a mixing of penal and sacrifical theories, but as I see it it cannot be both.
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AnthonyMartin
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by AnthonyMartin »

Fidelio wrote:
AnthonyMartin wrote:Could you clarify what it is that you are not convinced of? Which aspect is not consistent with the sin offering references above?
Here he talks about Jesus being made sin, discounting that the meaning could be "sin offering":
https://youtu.be/aiYlb7ckmX0?t=1355

Much hinges on how one interprets this verse, and I believe "sin offering" is the correct interpretation based on Romans 8:3, which to keep the context I should have quoted in KJV:
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
Also, Isaiah 53:10, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. "

Here he turns to the penal theory of atonement: "He who had been God in judgement, was not the object of God's judgement."
https://youtu.be/aiYlb7ckmX0?t=1737
A sin offering is not being judged, but is an appeasement, as noted in Ephesians 5:2 (KJV),
“And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.”

I think what happens often is a mixing of penal and sacrifical theories, but as I see it it cannot be both.
Thank you, that helps. I tend to think that there are aspects of both offering and substitution in the atonement. I don't like Penal Substitution, however the results of sin certainly have a punishment type aspect with the painful results. I felt like Trulan balanced that pretty well without crediting an angry God needing to pour out wrath as judgment. The concept of appeasement seems similar to Penal Substitution to me in many ways.

Wasn't trying to convince anyone one way or the other. I appreciate your comments.
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Fidelio
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by Fidelio »

AnthonyMartin wrote: I think what happens often is a mixing of penal and sacrifical theories, but as I see it it cannot be both.
Thank you, that helps. I tend to think that there are aspects of both offering and substitution in the atonement. I don't like Penal Substitution, however the results of sin certainly have a punishment type aspect with the painful results. I felt like Trulan balanced that pretty well without crediting an angry God needing to pour out wrath as judgment. The concept of appeasement seems similar to Penal Substitution to me in many ways.

Wasn't trying to convince anyone one way or the other. I appreciate your comments.[/quote]

You are welcome. I confess to not being an authority. I am still trying to sort things out. The minister in the video is a very good preacher and he did put in a lot of sacrificial content. Couple of resources listed below that I found helpful. The first one I picked up in Holmes County, Ohio, on vacation last August. It was the first time the penal theory was ever brought to my attention as being wrong. The author claims that it was never an Anabaptist position but leaks in from some ministers attending seminaries or from literature outside the Anabaptist camp.

Booklet: "What Jesus Did for Us on the Cross" by J. L. Stauffer
https://www.clp.org/products/what_jesus ... _cross_520

Book: "Sacrifice or Penalty?" by Keith Crider
https://www.clp.org/products/sacrifice_or_penalty_3561
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Josh
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Re: Atonement model?

Post by Josh »

I view Christ as being powerful enough to actually overcome sin and death. He was so powerful (through righteousness) that he destroyed sin and death, and thus sin and death could no longer demand a punishment.
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