Atonement model?

[RZehr]

Did God kill his Son? Did men kill Jesus? Did Jesus give his life? Did He commit suicide?

The thing that really matters is that man sinned and became separated from God. God could not accept sin so He offered up His Son so that those who would could be reconciled to Him again. Jesus, Son of God, present with the Father at creation, agreed to the Father's plan to bring us back to him.

So again, did God kill his only Son? Was Jesus forced to become part of this plan? Did men kill Jesus? Were men guilty because they took part in fulfilling God's plan?

What model of atonement is this? Does it matter? Simply put, Jesus, Son of God, one of the trinity, died that I might have life.

Hats Off,

I really like the simplicity of how you put things. It's one of the things that really helped me when I was a new believer - putting away complex theologies and just simply reading scripture without all these systems on top of it.

I certainly agree a lot with your sentiments. On the other hand…..
Oregon has the highest percentage of religiously unaffiliated adults in the nation, and has a very strong skepticism presences. Portland has one of, if not the highest percentage of atheism in the nation.

So when I am talking with these people (some of which are my coworkers) of which many are either hostile to Christianity, or just extremely ignorant of the Bible, the more I understand about this issue of atonement the better. Because when these people ask about the cross, these questions “Did God kill his Son? Did men kill Jesus? Did Jesus give his life? Did He commit suicide?” are absolutely going to be asked. Like I said, some will be from skeptics, and some will be from ignorance.

So if I want to answer these questions, then I need to do my homework. And yet do I believe that if I answer according to my poor knowledge, God can still work in these peoples hearts. I don’t think anyones salvation is going to simply hang on whether I successfully explain the correct view of atonement.

[joshuabgood]

“Did God kill his Son? Did men kill Jesus? Did Jesus give his life? Did He commit suicide?”

Some would say the answers to these sorts of questions are also important because it influences the way you see God.

[silentreader]

I know some theologians who are not dogmatic and they are very refreshing to talk to and discuss ideas and research with.

Of course, you'll have to deal with unvarnished truth when talking to them - which often is at odds with the Protestant gospel. Sacred cows get burnt up.

And I'm fine with theology as the unvarnished Scripture. But too often modern theology will pick and choose which Scripture to focus on at the expense of other Scripture that may have a slightly different perspective.

Re the Atonement subject, unvarnished Scripture says that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.
It says in the OT at least that the atoning sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish.
What other unvarnished truth about the Atonement can we gather from Scripture in order to form our theology?

[lesterb]

I know some theologians who are not dogmatic and they are very refreshing to talk to and discuss ideas and research with.

Of course, you'll have to deal with unvarnished truth when talking to them - which often is at odds with the Protestant gospel. Sacred cows get burnt up.

And I'm fine with theology as the unvarnished Scripture. But too often modern theology will pick and choose which Scripture to focus on at the expense of other Scripture that may have a slightly different perspective.

Re the Atonement subject, unvarnished Scripture says that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.
It says in the OT at least that the atoning sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish.
What other unvarnished truth about the Atonement can we gather from Scripture in order to form our theology?

1. The wages of sin are death.
2. So someone had to die because of my sin.
3. Had Christ not paid that price, I would have needed to die.

Note that my death could not have atoned for my sin, but Christ's death did.

[RZehr]

1. The wages of sin are death.
2. So someone had to die because of my sin.
3. Had Christ not paid that price, I would have needed to die.

Note that my death could not have atoned for my sin, but Christ's death did.

Question: If my death can not atone for my sin..... Is this connected to the eternal/everlasting aspect of hell?

[silentreader]

“Did God kill his Son? Did men kill Jesus? Did Jesus give his life? Did He commit suicide?”

Some would say the answers to these sorts of questions are also important because it influences the way you see God.

In a quick reading I think I'm in agreement with the latest posts by RZ, HO, and jbg.
We can't fully discern exactly how the Atonement was planned or put into play, but we need to remember that this plan was made and put into implementation while Him whom we know as Jesus was part of what I shall call the OT Godhead, before Hs incarnation. Thus He was probably part of planning that He would become the instrument of our salvation.

[silentreader]

1. The wages of sin are death.
2. So someone had to die because of my sin.
3. Had Christ not paid that price, I would have needed to die.

Note that my death could not have atoned for my sin, but Christ's death did.

Question: If my death can not atone for my sin..... Is this connected to the eternal/everlasting aspect of hell?

Next question, if my death can not atone for my sin, how does substitution fit in?

[lesterb]

1. The wages of sin are death.
2. So someone had to die because of my sin.
3. Had Christ not paid that price, I would have needed to die.

Note that my death could not have atoned for my sin, but Christ's death did.

Question: If my death can not atone for my sin..... Is this connected to the eternal/everlasting aspect of hell?

Next question, if my death can not atone for my sin, how does substitution fit in?

It fits because the substitute was the perfect lamb of God. No amount of punishment could atone for my sin. I don't believe that Jesus was punished for my sin. Rather, he died for my sin. There is a difference.

The wages of sin are death. But only the lamb of God could atone for sin.

[Hats Off]

This theology that I can understand and appreciate. I appreciate all comments since my last post here.

[silentreader]

Question: If my death can not atone for my sin..... Is this connected to the eternal/everlasting aspect of hell?

Next question, if my death can not atone for my sin, how does substitution fit in?

It fits because the substitute was the perfect lamb of God. No amount of punishment could atone for my sin. I don't believe that Jesus was punished for my sin. Rather, he died for my sin. There is a difference.

The wages of sin are death. But only the lamb of God could atone for sin.

Lester, please don't misunderstand me, I agree with that, but my idea of substitution is that of replacing something that works with something else that works. I guess it could also mean replacing something that doesn't work with something that works. Perhaps I'm unclear on the nuances of the definition of substitution. (That's weird, almost always when I try to type substitution it comes up substation.)
I guess when I think 'Substitutionary Atonement' I think of the OT atonement lambs, which God ordained and accepted as an effective substitute until the Lamb of God came and made the final atonement.