Cremation query

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Hats Off
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Hats Off »

The Amish bury the deceased in their cemeteries, same as other Christians. We have a cemetery beside each meeting house; since the Amish generally don't have meeting houses, they have cemeteries in each district.
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RickH
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Re: Cremation query

Post by RickH »

I'm not sure if this will contribute to what has already been said, or not, but our Bishop once gave a sermon concerning cremation.
The reason that he gave for rejecting it is because the process is very brutal to the deceased body. During cremation, the body goes through convulsions and such as it is heating up before burning. He deemed this as being very disrespectful of God's creation.

His view was similar to Tertullian who wrote "I on my side must deride it still more, especially when it burns up its dead with harshest inhumanity..." ~Tertullian - On the Resurrection of the Flesh.

He also wrote "But not a particle of the soul can possibly remain in the body, which is itself destined to disappear when time shall have abolished the entire scene on which the body has played its part. And yet even this partial survival of the soul finds a place in the opinions of some men; and on this account they will not have the body consumed at its funeral by fire, because they would spare the small residue of the soul. There is, however, another way of accounting for this pious treatment, not as if it meant to favour the relics of the soul, but as if it would avert a cruel custom in the interest even of the body; since, being human, it is itself undeserving of an end which is also inflicted upon murderers." ~Tertullian - A Treatise on the Soul

Felix wrote "Nor, as you [pagens]believe, do we fear any loss from sepulture, but we adopt the
ancient and better custom of burying in the earth."
~Minucius Felix - The Octavius of Minucius Felix

If you would like to see the quotes in full context, please let me know by PM and I will send you a PDF containing the entire paragraphs.
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Sudsy
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Sudsy »

Warning - not for the faint-hearted.

If you are not being cremated this is probably what will happen to you (if you are not a Jew) -

Parts taken from here https://www.everplans.com/articles/the- ... s-explicit

First, before the surgical embalming or cosmetic processes can begin, your naked body is washed in a disinfectant solution and the limbs are massaged and manipulated to relieve rigor mortis (stiffening of the joints and muscles). Any facial hair is shaved off, unless the person who died wore facial hair. All this done by people you do not know.

Then, the eyes are closed, often using skin glue and/or plastic flesh-colored oval-shaped “eye caps” that sit on the eye and secure the eyelid in place. The mouth is closed and the lower jaw is secured, either by sewing or wires. If the jaw is sewn shut, suture string is threaded through the lower jaw below the gums, up and through the gums of the top front teeth, into the right or left nostril, through the septum, into the other nostril, and back down into the mouth. Then the two ends of suture string are tied together. If the jaw is wired shut, a tool called a needle injector is often used to insert a piece of wire anchored to a needle into the upper and lower jaws. The wires are tied together to securely close the mouth. Once the jaw has been secured, the mouth can be manipulated into the desired arrangement.

For arterial embalming, the blood is removed from the body via the veins and replaced with an embalming solution via the arteries. The embalming solution is usually a combination of formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, methanol, ethanol, phenol, and water, and may also contain dyes in order to simulate a life-like skin-tone.

For cavity embalming, a small incision is made near the bellybutton and a sharp surgical instrument used for drainage, called a trocar, is inserted into the body cavity. Using the trocar, organs in the chest cavity and abdomen are punctured and drained of gas and fluid contents and then replaced with formaldehyde-based chemical mixtures. The incision is closed, and at this point the body is fully embalmed.

Then you are put in a comfy coffin (often costing in the thousands of dollars) and spend considerable funeral costs as well as burial site costs. Average NA funeral about $ 7,000 to $ 10,000.

I really doubt most burials in the past attempted to do all this preserving and there are some pretty scary stories of graves that were dug up and it showed the person had not died and were trying to claw their way out of their container.

My pre-planned cremation will cost us in the hundreds not the thousands. Besides I don't want my eyes glued shut as every eye shall see Him and I don't want to miss out. :lol:
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appleman2006
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Re: Cremation query

Post by appleman2006 »

I have listened to all the arguments against cremation for years and frankly none of them ring very true for me.
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lesterb
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Re: Cremation query

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:Warning - not for the faint-hearted.

If you are not being cremated this is probably what will happen to you (if you are not a Jew) -

Parts taken from here https://www.everplans.com/articles/the- ... s-explicit

First, before the surgical embalming or cosmetic processes can begin, your naked body is washed in a disinfectant solution and the limbs are massaged and manipulated to relieve rigor mortis (stiffening of the joints and muscles). Any facial hair is shaved off, unless the person who died wore facial hair. All this done by people you do not know.

Then, the eyes are closed, often using skin glue and/or plastic flesh-colored oval-shaped “eye caps” that sit on the eye and secure the eyelid in place. The mouth is closed and the lower jaw is secured, either by sewing or wires. If the jaw is sewn shut, suture string is threaded through the lower jaw below the gums, up and through the gums of the top front teeth, into the right or left nostril, through the septum, into the other nostril, and back down into the mouth. Then the two ends of suture string are tied together. If the jaw is wired shut, a tool called a needle injector is often used to insert a piece of wire anchored to a needle into the upper and lower jaws. The wires are tied together to securely close the mouth. Once the jaw has been secured, the mouth can be manipulated into the desired arrangement.

For arterial embalming, the blood is removed from the body via the veins and replaced with an embalming solution via the arteries. The embalming solution is usually a combination of formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, methanol, ethanol, phenol, and water, and may also contain dyes in order to simulate a life-like skin-tone.

For cavity embalming, a small incision is made near the bellybutton and a sharp surgical instrument used for drainage, called a trocar, is inserted into the body cavity. Using the trocar, organs in the chest cavity and abdomen are punctured and drained of gas and fluid contents and then replaced with formaldehyde-based chemical mixtures. The incision is closed, and at this point the body is fully embalmed.

Then you are put in a comfy coffin (often costing in the thousands of dollars) and spend considerable funeral costs as well as burial site costs. Average NA funeral about $ 7,000 to $ 10,000.

I really doubt most burials in the past attempted to do all this preserving and there are some pretty scary stories of graves that were dug up and it showed the person had not died and were trying to claw their way out of their container.

My pre-planned cremation will cost us in the hundreds not the thousands. Besides I don't want my eyes glued shut as every eye shall see Him and I don't want to miss out. :lol:
Ten thousand will not buy you much of a funeral in Alberta. More likely to be $12K to $15K, even it isn't a fancy funeral.

So it's almost becoming a stewardship issue. I'd love to save my family that expense. But some people (including my father in law) make this a MAJOR spiritual issue.
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ohio jones
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Re: Cremation query

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:All this done by people you do not know.
The local undertaker is often well known in a small community. Sometimes the elderly feel that they are being "sized up" when meeting him.
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temporal1
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Re: Cremation query

Post by temporal1 »

lesterb wrote: Ten thousand will not buy you much of a funeral in Alberta. More likely to be $12K to $15K, even it isn't a fancy funeral.

So it's almost becoming a stewardship issue. I'd love to save my family that expense. But some people (including my father in law) make this a MAJOR spiritual issue.
i appreciate this discussion, i have to make plans. i have some arrangements, but, have not decided about cremation. i'm thinking about it, but, it's not been the way of my family. i believe funerals are for the living, so, that's primary.

a couple of years ago, a dear uncle passed. he had an open casket visitation, but was then cremated. honestly, it was so like other family members' funerals, it seemed not as shocking. i'm so unsure. i spoke to my brother about it, he was not agreeable with cremation.

for me, it's definitely about the money.
others are struggling with it, too, i know.

i appreciate RickH's post, i recognize much of that thinking (over most of my life.)

since reading on this forum, i've thought more about the resurrection of the physical body; prior, i mostly thought about being a spiritual being, after death.

however, lots of people are burned or mangled at death, and, the process for preparation for burial .. ?? .. does not leave the body untouched.

unpleasant topic. when i was young, i refused to think about it.

i suppose, i'm leaning toward cremation, a memorial visitation, no open casket, then, possibly bury the ashes near/with my family, possibly with a marker.
i used to take my mother to visit cemeteries, she was focused on finding names of her loved ones! it meant a lot to her .. so, for future family, it's nice to be able to locate those who went before.

i don't feel the need for my ashes to go to a fabulous tourist location.
my son told me he wants his ashes to go to a certain race track in Germany. i asked him, why don't you/we just go visit while you're still living?! :?
http://www.nuerburgring.de/

i'm undecided.
knowing me, i may not decide before it's too late, the decision will be left to others.
but, that's not my plan.

my loved ones made decisions+arrangements beforehand, it's much better that way.
when the time comes, there's enough/too much to deal with, without all that, too.
there is a real peace of mind to follow instructions, knowing you're doing as they wanted, not guessing.
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with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:I know the Orthodox Church is opposed to cremation. In fact, it is customary for them to be buried facing east for the return of Christ. Really, as mentioned before, the Jewish Apostles that founded Christianity & the Church (well Christ did!) understood the importance of burial, and for some reason, 'bones' were always important. Think how Joseph wanted his bones to return to where he came from and so the Israelites carried them all the way back- (as they did his father's). Pagans cremated-
It's not that God 'can't' restore a body from ashes of course, but I do believe the Jews and the Church had the same view of burials and continue to this day. I really don't see that as superstitious at all, when you read through the Bible.

Actually, in Greece, you only rent a plot. Cremation is perhaps a bit more dignified than this:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/12/news/mn-65083

J.M.
That is quite disturbing, isn't it? It's no wonder EO has always steered me away from Greek O- I guess as this old world gets older, the thought of running out of room to bury the dead is something some places have to deal with.
It seems to me, there is or was a custom of cemetaries attached to churches- is that true in the Anabaptist world? Where do the Amish bury their deceased?

You mean all "One True Churches" are not created equal?

J.M.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

lesterb wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Warning - not for the faint-hearted.

If you are not being cremated this is probably what will happen to you (if you are not a Jew) -

Parts taken from here https://www.everplans.com/articles/the- ... s-explicit

First, before the surgical embalming or cosmetic processes can begin, your naked body is washed in a disinfectant solution and the limbs are massaged and manipulated to relieve rigor mortis (stiffening of the joints and muscles). Any facial hair is shaved off, unless the person who died wore facial hair. All this done by people you do not know.

Then, the eyes are closed, often using skin glue and/or plastic flesh-colored oval-shaped “eye caps” that sit on the eye and secure the eyelid in place. The mouth is closed and the lower jaw is secured, either by sewing or wires. If the jaw is sewn shut, suture string is threaded through the lower jaw below the gums, up and through the gums of the top front teeth, into the right or left nostril, through the septum, into the other nostril, and back down into the mouth. Then the two ends of suture string are tied together. If the jaw is wired shut, a tool called a needle injector is often used to insert a piece of wire anchored to a needle into the upper and lower jaws. The wires are tied together to securely close the mouth. Once the jaw has been secured, the mouth can be manipulated into the desired arrangement.

For arterial embalming, the blood is removed from the body via the veins and replaced with an embalming solution via the arteries. The embalming solution is usually a combination of formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, methanol, ethanol, phenol, and water, and may also contain dyes in order to simulate a life-like skin-tone.

For cavity embalming, a small incision is made near the bellybutton and a sharp surgical instrument used for drainage, called a trocar, is inserted into the body cavity. Using the trocar, organs in the chest cavity and abdomen are punctured and drained of gas and fluid contents and then replaced with formaldehyde-based chemical mixtures. The incision is closed, and at this point the body is fully embalmed.

Then you are put in a comfy coffin (often costing in the thousands of dollars) and spend considerable funeral costs as well as burial site costs. Average NA funeral about $ 7,000 to $ 10,000.

I really doubt most burials in the past attempted to do all this preserving and there are some pretty scary stories of graves that were dug up and it showed the person had not died and were trying to claw their way out of their container.

My pre-planned cremation will cost us in the hundreds not the thousands. Besides I don't want my eyes glued shut as every eye shall see Him and I don't want to miss out. :lol:
Ten thousand will not buy you much of a funeral in Alberta. More likely to be $12K to $15K, even it isn't a fancy funeral.

So it's almost becoming a stewardship issue. I'd love to save my family that expense. But some people (including my father in law) make this a MAJOR spiritual issue.
I get the distinct impression that my conference has taken measures to keep those costs in check, everything seems simple yet dignified. I am unsure as to what the details are.

My mothers was on the high side of that, although they were inflated by my brother's lack of sales resistance.

J.M.
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Hats Off
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Hats Off »

Some of us still have visitation in the home to help cut costs. I think I would go for that if my wife went first. It is also more intimate but it is less likely that as many locals would show up.
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