Cremation query

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: Cremation query

Post by RZehr »

I believe the burning at the stake in our history plays a part.
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Soloist
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Soloist »

I personally would rather be a: tossed in the sea, b: burned at the stake, C: martyr'ed in some other way, or d: be dropped in a wood box without anything done to my body.

That being said, the Bible says the sea gives up its dead, We get new bodies... so... big deal how you get handled after death? I think not.

More interesting would be if non-believers get a new body or show up as is.
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Chris
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Chris »

In early Judaeo Christian tradition, cremation was an act preformed by pagans for their dead. Jews and early Christians would bring their dead to a tomb for a year. After a year the remains would often be transferred to the family tomb. Believe it or not it would just be bones in a year.

This is still performed by many monks on Mt. Athos. MANY pagan sects still cremate their dead. Also if you consider at the end time the dead will rise from the graves (consider Elisha's bones). There's some theology baked in there.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Bootstrap »

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I trust that these new heavenly bodies will be given to those who perished in house fires, the victims of the 9/11 tragedy whose bodies were decimated in the aftermath, those who were buried at sea and had their bodies decay, those who were fed to wild animals in persecutions, etc.

And I imagine that holds for those who are cremated as well. And for those who were buried before embalming fluid, whose bodies returned to the earth. And for those who were buried as Chris describes, leaving only some bones. The same God who made our earthly bodies doesn't need a lot of help from us to give us spiritual bodies in heaven.
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Sudsy
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Sudsy »

Man has got smart enough to take a small amount of human residue and identify who that person was. I don't think it will be that challenging for God to take a morsel of ash and know whose it is and create a new, immortal body from it. Seems to me, that is how He started making man, with a spec of dust.
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Hats Off
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Hats Off »

silentreader wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Neto wrote:I would sat that it is at least strongly frowned on in all of the Mennonite groups with which I have been closely associated.
Neto, what is the reason(s) for discouraging cremation in those groups?
One of the reasons I have heard in this area is that cremation is an attempt to get rid of the body so that it is not available to be raised up for judgement.
I would agree with this understanding - however a body that is burned is no more unavailable than any other body that has returned to the dust of the ground. It would seem almost superstitious to me to be afraid of cremation.
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MattY
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Re: Cremation query

Post by MattY »

Sudsy wrote:Man has got smart enough to take a small amount of human residue and identify who that person was. I don't think it will be that challenging for God to take a morsel of ash and know whose it is and create a new, immortal body from it. Seems to me, that is how He started making man, with a spec of dust.
While I agree with this intellectually, and so I wouldn't say we should be afraid of it or it should be forbidden (though I still encourage burial, for reasons which I'll explain below), cremation still creeps me out for some reason - maybe partly because it doesn't seem respectful to the body. And it often makes me think of the Holocaust. That's how the Nazis got rid of many of the bodies in the extermination camps.

I would still encourage burial. There is Christian symbolism with burial, and perhaps a contrast with paganism, that isn't there with cremation. For Christianity, in contrast to paganism and gnosticism, the body is an integral part of a human being, not merely a vessel containing a spirit which is the real person. God is the Creator and Redeemer of both material and spiritual existence. Redemption is a process of restoring creation, rather than escaping creation as it was according to gnostics. Also, ancient Platonic philosophers taught that the spiritual side of humans was higher and better than the physical side, though they wouldn't have taught that matter is evil. So when non-Christians, or maybe even some Christians (not you, Sudsy) choose cremation, I suspect one reason might be modern gnostic or platonic influence - denigrating the physical/material in the name of "spirituality", and lifting up the spirit and soul in contrast.

Edited to add the following from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
Christians preferred to bury the dead rather than to cremate the remains, as was common in Roman culture. The Roman catacombs and veneration of relics of saints witness to this preference. For them, the body was not a mere receptacle for a spirit that was the real person, but an integral part of the human person.[66] They looked on the body as sanctified by the sacraments[67] and itself the temple of the Holy Spirit,[68] and thus requiring to be disposed of in a way that honours and reveres it, and they saw many early practices involved with disposal of dead bodies as pagan in origin or an insult to the body;[69]

The idea that cremation might interfere with God's ability to resurrect the body was refuted as early as the 2nd-century Octavius of Minucius Felix, in which he said: "Every body, whether it is dried up into dust, or is dissolved into moisture, or is compressed into ashes, or is attenuated into smoke, is withdrawn from us, but it is reserved for God in the custody of the elements. Nor, as you believe, do we fear any loss from sepulture, but we adopt the ancient and better custom of burying in the earth."[70] And while there was a clear preference for burial, there was no general Church law forbidding cremation until 1866.
...
The Methodist Review noted that "Three thoughts alone would lead us to suppose that the early Christians would have special care for their dead, namely, the essential Jewish origin of the Church; the mode of burial of their founder; and the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, so powerfully urged by the apostles, and so mighty in its influence on the primitive Christians. From these considerations, the Roman custom of cremation would be most repulsive to the Christian mind."
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Valerie
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Valerie »

I know the Orthodox Church is opposed to cremation. In fact, it is customary for them to be buried facing east for the return of Christ. Really, as mentioned before, the Jewish Apostles that founded Christianity & the Church (well Christ did!) understood the importance of burial, and for some reason, 'bones' were always important. Think how Joseph wanted his bones to return to where he came from and so the Israelites carried them all the way back- (as they did his father's). Pagans cremated-
It's not that God 'can't' restore a body from ashes of course, but I do believe the Jews and the Church had the same view of burials and continue to this day. I really don't see that as superstitious at all, when you read through the Bible.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:I know the Orthodox Church is opposed to cremation. In fact, it is customary for them to be buried facing east for the return of Christ. Really, as mentioned before, the Jewish Apostles that founded Christianity & the Church (well Christ did!) understood the importance of burial, and for some reason, 'bones' were always important. Think how Joseph wanted his bones to return to where he came from and so the Israelites carried them all the way back- (as they did his father's). Pagans cremated-
It's not that God 'can't' restore a body from ashes of course, but I do believe the Jews and the Church had the same view of burials and continue to this day. I really don't see that as superstitious at all, when you read through the Bible.

Actually, in Greece, you only rent a plot. Cremation is perhaps a bit more dignified than this:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/12/news/mn-65083

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Cremation query

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:I know the Orthodox Church is opposed to cremation. In fact, it is customary for them to be buried facing east for the return of Christ. Really, as mentioned before, the Jewish Apostles that founded Christianity & the Church (well Christ did!) understood the importance of burial, and for some reason, 'bones' were always important. Think how Joseph wanted his bones to return to where he came from and so the Israelites carried them all the way back- (as they did his father's). Pagans cremated-
It's not that God 'can't' restore a body from ashes of course, but I do believe the Jews and the Church had the same view of burials and continue to this day. I really don't see that as superstitious at all, when you read through the Bible.

Actually, in Greece, you only rent a plot. Cremation is perhaps a bit more dignified than this:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/12/news/mn-65083

J.M.
That is quite disturbing, isn't it? It's no wonder EO has always steered me away from Greek O- I guess as this old world gets older, the thought of running out of room to bury the dead is something some places have to deal with.
It seems to me, there is or was a custom of cemetaries attached to churches- is that true in the Anabaptist world? Where do the Amish bury their deceased?
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