Living With The Amish Youtube Series

[Sudsy]

I think that what Josh might be speaking to, correct me if I am wrong, is it is a slippery slope. One thing leads to another, and another and then we look around and say how did things get like this? There is a path the modern church followed to get in the state they are in and a lot of it was a relaxing of standards to fit in to the world. At one time most did dress like the Anabaptist do but they followed the changes in fashion good or bad.

Imo, the slippery slope was not due to a lessening of standards but rather that Christians living according to those standards to retain a fellowship in a group did not have personal convictions by the Holy Spirit on how they should live. They didn't follow that still small voice - "Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." - Isaiah 30:21. Instead they followed what a group said that is usually the results of one or two individuals that can sell their view to become a group standard. Anabaptism is strong on group discernment over individual leadings and my reservations in this area is not only what an individual can sell to be followed but the fact that various Anabaptist groups have varying standards. A group discernment is not a pure fix to individual Spirit leadings but it is considered to be more safe than individual leadings. If the leadership is truly Spirit lead I agree it should be the way to validate Spirit leadings.

I remember when the norms became less restrictive regarding women's make-up and jewelry in Pentecostalism. Those who had personal convictions didn't change much if anything. Those without had to try out most everything previously restricted and we had some Tammy Faye Backer look a likes. If the emphasis preached was put on what women should be known for perhaps the adornments would not have become an issue.

That is not to say dress is what matters. No, you are right Sudsy it is the heart. However, we can see the unevenness in the practices in dress as they are done in some conservative Anabaptist circles. Plus, this brings it back to the explanation given to outsiders on why they dress the way they do. It does not make sense to say women dress this way because of modesty and not conforming to the world yet men can conform to the world because they do not have the same issues women do.

I was saying that Jesus said 'good deeds' should be our main identifier. The kind of good deeds that unbelievers see God initiating and I don't see how this happens unless along with these good deeds we are sharing what God is doing in our lives. Pointing people to Jesus and not ourselves.

Men have inappropriate clothing as well, and yes men can care about how they look especially when it comes to women.

A man witnessing in a Speedo would be inappropriate but in short sleeves and short pants in the summer or how many buttons or length of a hat brim, not, imo. I have not seen this to be a distraction from what is shared.

Josh you mentioned about the strange men. I think this sister was talking about a man that made her feel uncomfortable or scared even. Sometimes standing out brings negative attention as well, and unfortunately people look at women as a easy target.

[Josh]

I'm exhausted trying to defend modest attire, veilings, and being ok with a brotherhood making decisions about attire, to other Christians. Sorry Sudsy, I just find it demoralising and exhausting.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

I think that what Josh might be speaking to, correct me if I am wrong, is it is a slippery slope. One thing leads to another, and another and then we look around and say how did things get like this? There is a path the modern church followed to get in the state they are in and a lot of it was a relaxing of standards to fit in to the world. At one time most did dress like the Anabaptist do but they followed the changes in fashion good or bad.

Imo, the slippery slope was not due to a lessening of standards but rather that Christians living according to those standards to retain a fellowship in a group did not have personal convictions by the Holy Spirit on how they should live. They didn't follow that still small voice - "Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." - Isaiah 30:21. Instead they followed what a group said that is usually the results of one or two individuals that can sell their view to become a group standard. Anabaptism is strong on group discernment over individual leadings and my reservations in this area is not only what an individual can sell to be followed but the fact that various Anabaptist groups have varying standards. A group discernment is not a pure fix to individual Spirit leadings but it is considered to be more safe than individual leadings. If the leadership is truly Spirit lead I agree it should be the way to validate Spirit leadings.

I remember when the norms became less restrictive regarding women's make-up and jewelry in Pentecostalism. Those who had personal convictions didn't change much if anything. Those without had to try out most everything previously restricted and we had some Tammy Faye Backer look a likes. If the emphasis preached was put on what women should be known for perhaps the adornments would not have become an issue.

I agree there must be a personal conviction as well. With my children I not only tell them the rules of the house but also explain the reasoning behind them. There is danger when people are not taught the underlying reason in scripture. Ultimately, people have to make their own choices on what they will do but it is sad when they do without a complete understanding.

That is not to say dress is what matters. No, you are right Sudsy it is the heart. However, we can see the unevenness in the practices in dress as they are done in some conservative Anabaptist circles. Plus, this brings it back to the explanation given to outsiders on why they dress the way they do. It does not make sense to say women dress this way because of modesty and not conforming to the world yet men can conform to the world because they do not have the same issues women do.

I was saying that Jesus said 'good deeds' should be our main identifier. The kind of good deeds that unbelievers see God initiating and I don't see how this happens unless along with these good deeds we are sharing what God is doing in our lives. Pointing people to Jesus and not ourselves.

I agree our light does need to shine. I do not think the way plain communities choose to dress is intentionally trying to point to themselves over Jesus though. I think it is just an outcome of it.

Men have inappropriate clothing as well, and yes men can care about how they look especially when it comes to women.

A man witnessing in a Speedo would be inappropriate but in short sleeves and short pants in the summer or how many buttons or length of a hat brim, not, imo. I have not seen this to be a distraction from what is shared.

This, I think boils down to what is culturally accepted. For instance, I am not bothered by men in speedos or women in bikinis. If they came up to me with a bible tract and talked about Jesus I would probably listen to what they had to say. However, that is because in the mainstream culture I grew up in it is simply not a big deal and I know what culture they come from. Plus, I would have an understanding on what they are taught to make them feel like a speedo is fine to witness. Anabaptist culture, I understand, are bothered by this and it is because they have a view of modesty that many in the culture I came from find old fashioned. If a man in a speedo came up to them to witness they probably would have reservations about listening.

Josh you mentioned about the strange men. I think this sister was talking about a man that made her feel uncomfortable or scared even. Sometimes standing out brings negative attention as well, and unfortunately people look at women as a easy target.

[Sudsy]

I'm exhausted trying to defend modest attire, veilings, and being ok with a brotherhood making decisions about attire, to other Christians. Sorry Sudsy, I just find it demoralising and exhausting.

I was trying to zero in on what Jesus said is our main identifiers (good deeds and love for one another) but if you find that kind of questioning demoralising and exhausting, then I'm fine with you not wanting to discuss this further.

Getting back to the video series, I will discuss my observations of the Amish. There are things in their culture that cause me to wish for some of this similar community closeness that I had previously experienced in my Pentecostal childhood. We attended church or had opportunity to attend church 6 nights out of 7 and often for more than 1 hour. This caused us to be quite involved in each other's lives and concerns. The conversations at home were primarily on spiritual things. It was a nice environment to grow up in.

Isolation from the world and adhering to a certain lifestyle whether it be in a monastery or a community can be a great life. However, I don't think it represents how Jesus or the early church built the Kingdom. It is those uncomfortable areas of contact with the world where we are to be as far as I can see.

[Josh]

I was trying to zero in on what Jesus said is our main identifiers (good deeds and love for one another) but if you find that kind of questioning demoralising and exhausting, then I'm fine with you not wanting to discuss this further

I think you're putting words in my mouth saying that I don't think those are our main identifiers. What is demoralising is that any mention of modesty immediately gets an attack from you saying "Well as Christians we shouldn't focus on those things."

Nobody is saying that should be our primary identifier and focus. I am just saying that if it is completely absent from a group of "Christians", something is seriously wrong.

[Sudsy]

I think you're putting words in my mouth saying that I don't think those are our main identifiers. What is demoralising is that any mention of modesty immediately gets an attack from you saying "Well as Christians we shouldn't focus on those things."

Nobody is saying that should be our primary identifier and focus. I am just saying that if it is completely absent from a group of "Christians", something is seriously wrong.

To try to clarify how I took your previous post -

I thought your post pointing at Midwest Fellowship was an attack. T-Shirts and no veilings during the week is quite common in our Anabaptist church also. However, in our Anabaptist group church dress and street dress are basically the same. We don't dress up or dress down for church. Pointing the finger at Midwest Fellowship and this varied dress between Sunday and the rest of the week was more about being hypocritical in your view.

And when you said - "My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so. And soon it won't be: we'll be dressing exactly like the liberal Mennonite Church does now (yoga pants and all), because we think and act exactly like they did 50 years ago, and we could just honestly care less about what our witness to unbelievers is." I took that you were saying this kind of dress of T-Shirts and veiling is a bad witness to unbelievers so this tripped off the comments on Christian identifiers.

I really support modest dress and do think it needs more guidance in some of our Anabaptist groups. This we agree on but not to the extent that your group takes it. I wish older women guided our younger ones better in their choices of dress and it is concerning that they may not in fear of losing them. You would likely be quite uncomfortable in our church.

I do think CMs are overly concerned about dress, the veiling and D&R and they probably think I'm not concerned enough and too concerned about evangelism. Our Anabaptist MB group does not have these CM concerns to any great extent. But I think we have more concern about evangelism. But as you say "If it is completely absent from a group of "Christians", something is seriously wrong." when referring to dress concerns, then I agree. I am just not aware of a whole group of Christians where immodest dress is absent.

Hope this clears up or helps clarify my reaction to your post. I don't always get the points being made correctly and don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Adam]

This, I think boils down to what is culturally accepted. For instance, I am not bothered by men in speedos or women in bikinis. If they came up to me with a bible tract and talked about Jesus I would probably listen to what they had to say. However, that is because in the mainstream culture I grew up in it is simply not a big deal and I know what culture they come from. Plus, I would have an understanding on what they are taught to make them feel like a speedo is fine to witness. Anabaptist culture, I understand, are bothered by this and it is because they have a view of modesty that many in the culture I came from find old fashioned. If a man in a speedo came up to them to witness they probably would have reservations about listening.

Most men, Christian or not, would be too distracted by the bikini to pay much attention to what was being said. Christian men with a concern for modesty would be very uncomfortable. Christian men without a concern for modesty would nevertheless still probably be trying to keep themselves from looking at the woman's body so as not to wander into sin in their own minds. Non Christian men would probably not pay attention to what she was saying and just be looking at her body.

[Adam]

So I asked an Amish woman if they wore it all the time because the Bible says to "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) therefore always be covered if one is always praying? Her face brightened and she said "that is exactly right"- so in a sense if you connect those 2 passages, you could ultimately conclude the Bible teaches to cover all the time if one is praying all the time?

Strange how the men seem to have straight forward areas of obedience that are not taken literally.

"A man dishonors his head if he covers his head while praying or prophesying." 1 Cor. 11:4"

So, if men should pray without ceasing, they shouldn't be wearing hats, period. Right ?

"Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." 1 Timothy 2:8

Even if this meant 'every place of worship' as only the NIV translates it, most Christian men don't lift up their hands whenever they pray in church. Where do men find scripture to support ignoring this ?

These inconsistencies of literal application are even found among the Amish and it would seem looking at verses like these that men focus more on how women should live holy lives than they do themselves. Strange I have never heard a man behind the pulpit preach on men not wearing hats or the need to lift up hands when they pray.

The other side of the coin is that many churches that do not require women to wear head coverings still require men to remove their hats in church. In fact, a large number of Christian men, regardless of their denomination, will remove their hats when they pray. So the commandment to men is kept in many churches while the commandment to women is disregarded.

My assumption is that most churches/women who do not wear a head covering (and for the sake of full disclosure, let me say that my wife is one of them), have not reached that conclusion based on an unbiased exegesis of 1 Corinthians 11 and a study of how the practice was followed in the early church. Rather, I think most churches/women start from the perspective of, "We/I don't like the idea of having to wear a head covering," and work backwards to figure out why 1 Corinthians 11 should no longer apply. If my assumption is wrong, I would like to hear from others as to how they have reached the conclusion that women do not need to wear a head covering.

As to whether or not it should be worn all the time or only when praying, I do not have strong feelings one way or the other and I think that a good case could be made for either interpretation.

(As for me, I do remove my hat when I pray, and I try to wear a hat only when I am outside because the strong equatorial sun in the high altitudes here will quickly burn me. I do lift up my hands in worship (at times) but not in prayer. I think I will do some further reading as to whether or not I should pray with uplifted hands.)

[TeleBodyofChrist]

This, I think boils down to what is culturally accepted. For instance, I am not bothered by men in speedos or women in bikinis. If they came up to me with a bible tract and talked about Jesus I would probably listen to what they had to say. However, that is because in the mainstream culture I grew up in it is simply not a big deal and I know what culture they come from. Plus, I would have an understanding on what they are taught to make them feel like a speedo is fine to witness. Anabaptist culture, I understand, are bothered by this and it is because they have a view of modesty that many in the culture I came from find old fashioned. If a man in a speedo came up to them to witness they probably would have reservations about listening.

Most men, Christian or not, would be too distracted by the bikini to pay much attention to what was being said. Christian men with a concern for modesty would be very uncomfortable. Christian men without a concern for modesty would nevertheless still probably be trying to keep themselves from looking at the woman's body so as not to wander into sin in their own minds. Non Christian men would probably not pay attention to what she was saying and just be looking at her body.

I do not know; I am not a man. However, I have been to beaches and pool parties where I did not know whether they were Christian or not and people functioned fine. I think there is a misconception about "out there". People just do not realize how desensitized people are to this. However, that was not my point at the time of the post I was responding to something someone else said and referring to how I would react. I was trying to say it is very much what you are used to how you look at things like this.

Everyone does not have a good understanding of God's word and they say they are Christian. This is a reality and what I observed in video 2 of this series.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

I was trying to zero in on what Jesus said is our main identifiers (good deeds and love for one another) but if you find that kind of questioning demoralising and exhausting, then I'm fine with you not wanting to discuss this further

I think you're putting words in my mouth saying that I don't think those are our main identifiers. What is demoralising is that any mention of modesty immediately gets an attack from you saying "Well as Christians we shouldn't focus on those things."

Nobody is saying that should be our primary identifier and focus. I am just saying that if it is completely absent from a group of "Christians", something is seriously wrong.

To try to clarify how I took your previous post -

I thought your post pointing at Midwest Fellowship was an attack. T-Shirts and no veilings during the week is quite common in our Anabaptist church also. However, in our Anabaptist group church dress and street dress are basically the same. We don't dress up or dress down for church. Pointing the finger at Midwest Fellowship and this varied dress between Sunday and the rest of the week was more about being hypocritical in your view.

And when you said - "My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so. And soon it won't be: we'll be dressing exactly like the liberal Mennonite Church does now (yoga pants and all), because we think and act exactly like they did 50 years ago, and we could just honestly care less about what our witness to unbelievers is." I took that you were saying this kind of dress of T-Shirts and veiling is a bad witness to unbelievers so this tripped off the comments on Christian identifiers.

I really support modest dress and do think it needs more guidance in some of our Anabaptist groups. This we agree on but not to the extent that your group takes it. I wish older women guided our younger ones better in their choices of dress and it is concerning that they may not in fear of losing them. You would likely be quite uncomfortable in our church.

I do think CMs are overly concerned about dress, the veiling and D&R and they probably think I'm not concerned enough and too concerned about evangelism. Our Anabaptist MB group does not have these CM concerns to any great extent. But I think we have more concern about evangelism. But as you say "If it is completely absent from a group of "Christians", something is seriously wrong." when referring to dress concerns, then I agree. I am just not aware of a whole group of Christians where immodest dress is absent.

Hope this clears up or helps clarify my reaction to your post. I don't always get the points being made correctly and don't want to put words in your mouth.

I know everyone here can do what they want, but I hope there is still love here? I understand where both of you are coming from. I even reached out to Josh through PM telling him I understand feeling the way he feels as I have experienced it from both other Christians and Anabaptist Christians for lack of a better way to differentiate.

Sudsy, it sounds like you are saying it should be Holy Spirit led and the person should be personally convicted. When the rules are the sole basis to fellowship and people are possibly punished for not doing everything exactly the same you have an issue with it. You do not have a issue with modesty itself but concern that there is not a deeper understanding of why people should be modest.

Josh, you seem to understand this as well but see the need for the rules and the specific guidelines.

I really think this is going to be based on our previous experiences with the world and what we took away from it. I know for me while I agree we have to be personally convicted some people need that guidance and accountability. I understand that everyone is not the same and even though I am strong some are not strong in the same way. At the same time, I think the problem you might be seeing with the youth Josh is the lack of personal conviction and just the knowledge of how to follow a rule.

It is true, that without personal conviction people will drift further to the point of what we have seen in the mainstream church.

I think we are somewhat agreeing but not saying it the the same way if that makes sense.

I do know that the second video brings up this discussion again and gender roles as this is what is different for the young teenagers. I hope we are able to discuss this without anyone thinking it is personally directed to them.