Living With The Amish Youtube Series

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Okay, so I watched the first episode all the way through.

For the most part everyone seemed to be interested in learning about the simple way of life.

I did not agree about the statement that the bible says women are always to be covered. It said while praying or prophesying. I understand why many choose to cover all the time though.

It was interesting when they were fishing how the youth from England did not seem to know how to just be quiet and listen to nature. They had to fill the quiet with noise. It was almost was as if they did not want to be alone with their thoughts.

It seemed like the young girl who was into fashion had a hard time with the dress code and individual expression. I think the Aunt of the young Amish couple was correct in saying it was superficial things. The young girl was talking about clothes but at the same time I think she did not like conformity period. It was like she felt she would lose herself by blending with the group.

The gender roles are hard for outsiders to understand because the modern family unit is not really a family unit. They are broken. Women are having to raise their children on their own which creates a situation where the daughters do not want to depend or feel they can not depend on a man. They do not have Godly male examples. Actually, since the males are not raised to be Godly spiritual leaders submission to them is to the downfall of the woman. It is not equal submission. When these are all the examples these youth have it is perfectly understandable that they are scared or do not trust what they see between the married couples in the Amish community.

Another issue that comes into play is women in the Amish community job is the raise the children and take care of the home. Women outside the community are expected to do that as well but also have a career. If a women is not educated and cannot contribute financially then she is considered to be setting herself up for failure. What if her husband leaves her for a younger model? What would she do?

I admit this is hard for me as I was raised to have a backup plan and not depend on a man. All the examples around me were bad for women who trusted a man. I heard about submission, of course, but only seen it as a way for men to lord over the woman like she was a possession. I did not want that to happen to me.

I think that in order for the youth's perception to change on this it will take more than what this series can provide. I am still learning after being Anabaptist for a good while now.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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TeleBodyofChrist wrote:Okay, so I watched the first episode all the way through.

For the most part everyone seemed to be interested in learning about the simple way of life.

I did not agree about the statement that the bible says women are always to be covered. It said while praying or prophesying. I understand why many choose to cover all the time though.

It was interesting when they were fishing how the youth from England did not seem to know how to just be quiet and listen to nature. They had to fill the quiet with noise. It was almost was as if they did not want to be alone with their thoughts.

It seemed like the young girl who was into fashion had a hard time with the dress code and individual expression. I think the Aunt of the young Amish couple was correct in saying it was superficial things. The young girl was talking about clothes but at the same time I think she did not like conformity period. It was like she felt she would lose herself by blending with the group.

The gender roles are hard for outsiders to understand because the modern family unit is not really a family unit. They are broken. Women are having to raise their children on their own which creates a situation where the daughters do not want to depend or feel they can not depend on a man. They do not have Godly male examples. Actually, since the males are not raised to be Godly spiritual leaders submission to them is to the downfall of the woman. It is not equal submission. When these are all the examples these youth have it is perfectly understandable that they are scared or do not trust what they see between the married couples in the Amish community.

Another issue that comes into play is women in the Amish community job is the raise the children and take care of the home. Women outside the community are expected to do that as well but also have a career. If a women is not educated and cannot contribute financially then she is considered to be setting herself up for failure. What if her husband leaves her for a younger model? What would she do?

I admit this is hard for me as I was raised to have a backup plan and not depend on a man. All the examples around me were bad for women who trusted a man. I heard about submission, of course, but only seen it as a way for men to lord over the woman like she was a possession. I did not want that to happen to me.

I think that in order for the youth's perception to change on this it will take more than what this series can provide. I am still learning after being Anabaptist for a good while now.
Excellent- teleBodyofChrist! You shared many of my own observations & thoughts- later on I would like to reply to some of what you said- I can relate to a lot of where you come from-
Have a blessed day!
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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TeleBodyofChrist wrote:Okay, so I watched the first episode all the way through.

For the most part everyone seemed to be interested in learning about the simple way of life.

I did not agree about the statement that the bible says women are always to be covered. It said while praying or prophesying. I understand why many choose to cover all the time though.

I caught this too- it made me wonder- do they really KNOW 1 Corinthians 11 or are they assuming the Bible teaches that women are to cover at all times- when I first learned about the headcovering, and right before I started to about 7 years ago, I was perplexed by the 'all the time' because of the passage 'when praying or prophesying'. So I asked an Amish woman if they wore it all the time because the Bible says to "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) therefore always be covered if one is always praying? Her face brightened and she said "that is exactly right"- so in a sense if you connect those 2 passages, you could ultimately conclude the Bible teaches to cover all the time if one is praying all the time?

It was interesting when they were fishing how the youth from England did not seem to know how to just be quiet and listen to nature. They had to fill the quiet with noise. It was almost was as if they did not want to be alone with their thoughts.

True- and they don't really think about faith, or God for that matter so they wouldn't seemingly have that appreciation for His creation and involvement in the nature they could see and hear- but hopefully, they learned to appreciate it more- and yes they had to always have other types of noise going on- maybe for the reason you suggest-

It seemed like the young girl who was into fashion had a hard time with the dress code and individual expression. I think the Aunt of the young Amish couple was correct in saying it was superficial things. The young girl was talking about clothes but at the same time I think she did not like conformity period. It was like she felt she would lose herself by blending with the group.

You will see how she is the one who challenges the most- of course there are those who challenge in Anabaptist churches, we hear of this all the time- but I admired her for wanting to understand & know more- I think you will appreciate what she says in the last one


The gender roles are hard for outsiders to understand because the modern family unit is not really a family unit. They are broken. Women are having to raise their children on their own which creates a situation where the daughters do not want to depend or feel they can not depend on a man. They do not have Godly male examples. Actually, since the males are not raised to be Godly spiritual leaders submission to them is to the downfall of the woman. It is not equal submission. When these are all the examples these youth have it is perfectly understandable that they are scared or do not trust what they see between the married couples in the Amish community.

I concur- this was completely alien to them. Thank you women's liberation movement :evil: I see how it has infiltrated the churches, hear so many comments from women AND men, that are foreign to their ways but the turning of last century, by and large, families WERE like that- men WERE the head, women didn't take issue for their roles (again by and large). I think you will appreciate later comments in the last one-

Another issue that comes into play is women in the Amish community job is the raise the children and take care of the home. Women outside the community are expected to do that as well but also have a career. If a women is not educated and cannot contribute financially then she is considered to be setting herself up for failure. What if her husband leaves her for a younger model? What would she do?

Yes, that is what has caused so many women in our society to feel the NEED for an education and career- 'in case'. But think about it, in an Amish community, even the widows are looked after- because of their community living according to Scripture about looking after each other. An Amish woman, single, widowed, or in the rare case a husband leaves, still need not 'worry' about her future. I have met and talked to Amish women in these situations that are well cared for. And they also, contribute to their community

I admit this is hard for me as I was raised to have a backup plan and not depend on a man. All the examples around me were bad for women who trusted a man. I heard about submission, of course, but only seen it as a way for men to lord over the woman like she was a possession. I did not want that to happen to me.

Out of necessity that has become the dominate mindset in our culture. Well it happened to my own family- Dad left us when I was 15 and mom was so devastated that she wasn't there for us mentally, emotionally, spiritually or physically for a couple of years afterwards. She didn't have an education or career and she was so depressed and scared she couldn't cope with adjusting, going to work now, and our needs too- so we were pretty much on our own. Same with my husband's family which was even worse- so when men started leaving families for the supposed greener grass on the other side, women started feeling they HAD to support themselves. I can understand your own concerns

I think that in order for the youth's perception to change on this it will take more than what this series can provide. I am still learning after being Anabaptist for a good while now.

Agreed-I would love to get an update on all these, I tried emailing the producer I was in contact with but it came back undeliverable- she must have left KEO films- the fact that this was presented as a 6 part documentary for the UK to be seen, I wonder about their own take on all these things-once they viewed it. But like you, my thinking was they seemed to ultimately be 'affected' positively in many ways- but without further mentoring it probably ended up falling by the wayside- who knows but God- seeds were planted, if their hearts were turning to Him, someone else could do the watering-

The reason I sought to find out about if this series was available online, my 19 year old niece is wanting to go live in the UK, in areas we are very concerned about for what they promote- she has not surrendered her heart to the Lord and we believe she could be lost to the world- mom & I are praying she will consider watching these-
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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So I asked an Amish woman if they wore it all the time because the Bible says to "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) therefore always be covered if one is always praying? Her face brightened and she said "that is exactly right"- so in a sense if you connect those 2 passages, you could ultimately conclude the Bible teaches to cover all the time if one is praying all the time?
Strange how the men seem to have straight forward areas of obedience that are not taken literally.

"A man dishonors his head if he covers his head while praying or prophesying." 1 Cor. 11:4"

So, if men should pray without ceasing, they shouldn't be wearing hats, period. Right ?

"Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." 1 Timothy 2:8

Even if this meant 'every place of worship' as only the NIV translates it, most Christian men don't lift up their hands whenever they pray in church. Where do men find scripture to support ignoring this ?

These inconsistencies of literal application are even found among the Amish and it would seem looking at verses like these that men focus more on how women should live holy lives than they do themselves. Strange I have never heard a man behind the pulpit preach on men not wearing hats or the need to lift up hands when they pray.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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Sudsy wrote:
So I asked an Amish woman if they wore it all the time because the Bible says to "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) therefore always be covered if one is always praying? Her face brightened and she said "that is exactly right"- so in a sense if you connect those 2 passages, you could ultimately conclude the Bible teaches to cover all the time if one is praying all the time?
Strange how the men seem to have straight forward areas of obedience that are not taken literally.

"A man dishonors his head if he covers his head while praying or prophesying." 1 Cor. 11:4"

So, if men should pray without ceasing, they shouldn't be wearing hats, period. Right ?

"Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." 1 Timothy 2:8

Even if this meant 'every place of worship' as only the NIV translates it, most Christian men don't lift up their hands whenever they pray in church. Where do men find scripture to support ignoring this ?

These inconsistencies of literal application are even found among the Amish and it would seem looking at verses like these that men focus more on how women should live holy lives than they do themselves. Strange I have never heard a man behind the pulpit preach on men not wearing hats or the need to lift up hands when they pray.
Sudsy it is so much easier for a man to remove his hat, than for a woman to remove her covering, trust me on that one ;)

You mention lifting holy hands for the men while praying- I think most people are unsure of what that means- but the churches I/we went to for decades, many of the men would lift their hands when praying (actually, so did the women, including myself- not 'up high' but more lifted up-like you see in pictures of ancient drawings of persecuted Christians)

Actually in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, there are early church writers/fathers who explained about lifting hands in prayer- I just read them the other day (and thought of you bringing that up from time to time!) and it was a practice to do so in the early days of the Church, not sure when it seemingly fizzled out but it is done in Pentecost type churches I've been to.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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"Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) was what I was told too. However, I do not know anyone who does that. So... However, as someone who prayed without a covering before it made it easy for me to remember to have it when it was always on my head.

I do know that some Christian women use shawls that they quickly pull up from their shoulders to their head. I have thought of that as an option. I think it is more a matter of convenience.

As far as the men go, it does appear to be a double standard which was brought up in the thread, Brother's Witness Through Dress http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=465.

Not long ago I was saying how I do not like going to Wal-mart and a brother said it gave me an opportunity to witness. You can not tell the men are Mennonite only the women so again it is left up to the women to stand out and be approached for this reason. I hear the women say how sometimes they are worried when strange men come up to them asking about their attire and faith. It makes me sad that the men are not also there so, they can witness to these men.

It would be nice to see an update on these teens.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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Valerie wrote: Sudsy it is so much easier for a man to remove his hat, than for a woman to remove her covering, trust me on that one ;)

It wouldn't be if ladies wore a ball cap like most Mennonite men do in our area or a straw hat like the Amish men wear. Nothing in scripture that I can see that defines what a head-covering must be shaped like. These cap styles and kerchiefs are traditional not scriptural, right ? Remember the hats worn by women in our Pentecostal background with the little veil fronts ? And the beehive hairdos ? Fun to look at old pictures sometimes.

You mention lifting holy hands for the men while praying- I think most people are unsure of what that means- but the churches I/we went to for decades, many of the men would lift their hands when praying (actually, so did the women, including myself- not 'up high' but more lifted up-like you see in pictures of ancient drawings of persecuted Christians)

Yes, Charismatics are quite uninhibited in raising hands. Actually in our MB church some do raise their hands in prayer and worship. I would say most of these are women. Our MB pastor came out from Pentecostalism to Anabaptism and his hands are raised most times. We have much more freedom of expression today in this church than we had 10 years ago. People really enter into worship and I especially love to see the younger folk freely expressing their worship.

Actually in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, there are early church writers/fathers who explained about lifting hands in prayer- I just read them the other day (and thought of you bringing that up from time to time!) and it was a practice to do so in the early days of the Church, not sure when it seemingly fizzled out but it is done in Pentecost type churches I've been to.

I bring this up from time to time when I hear such an emphasis on literal obedience to what verse of scripture says. Like selling all to be a Christ follower. When taken out of context or when applied only partially as literal I think we are cherry picking. Often when Jesus said to follow Him and leave all, it was a very literal leave your family and your job and come follow me around the country side. I do not believe this was intended for all Christians at all times. But in the sense of put Him first above all else it does tie in with other scriptures.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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TeleBodyofChrist wrote:As far as the men go, it does appear to be a double standard which was brought up in the thread, Brother's Witness Through Dress http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=465.

Not long ago I was saying how I do not like going to Wal-mart and a brother said it gave me an opportunity to witness. You can not tell the men are Mennonite only the women so again it is left up to the women to stand out and be approached for this reason. I hear the women say how sometimes they are worried when strange men come up to them asking about their attire and faith. It makes me sad that the men are not also there so, they can witness to these men.
Indeed, where I lived since 2005, I occasionally saw plain women and had vaguely heard about Mennonites and Amish and I grew up with Rod & Staff curriculum, so I had a vague connection of the position of peace and wanting to 100% follow Jesus connected with women who dress plain and wear veilings.

I can assure you: whenever my heart was soft and I was open to spiritual things, I would not in a million years want to be a "strange man" coming up to a woman and wanting to ask about her faith. And really nobody else is either. It would have been life changing if I'd know just how many "plain" men were around - eg workers at the hardware store I went to, the owners of another hardware store, the owners of a grocery store. Since they dressed exactly like me, I had no idea.

I would like to be different, but there is really no nonconformity left anywhere where I live for men other than tucking shirts in and wearing button down flannels. I do that, even though my church doesn't enforce it with younger men, although there is talk of ratcheting up enforcement of that. But nobody's excited about excommunicating young men next set of revival meetings because somebody saw them driving their truck around with a Tshirt with writing on it.

Ultimately, lots of people are wandering around just like I was: wishing they could talk to these super holy people but not feeling worthy enough or good enough. Not knowing who the men are, only seeing the women. Showing up to church on Sunday and being intimidated by plain coats and kapps - only to see Tshirts on men and no veilings on women during the week. (I'm looking at you, Midwest Fellowship.)

My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so. And soon it won't be: we'll be dressing exactly like the liberal Mennonite Church does now (yoga pants and all), because we think and act exactly like they did 50 years ago, and we could just honestly care less about what our witness to unbelievers is.

Now let's get back to discussing how those who dress plain are probably not born again and just want to live by legalistic rules.
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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Josh wrote: My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so. And soon it won't be: we'll be dressing exactly like the liberal Mennonite Church does now (yoga pants and all), because we think and act exactly like they did 50 years ago, and we could just honestly care less about what our witness to unbelievers is.

Now let's get back to discussing how those who dress plain are probably not born again and just want to live by legalistic rules.
Josh, can you show me in scripture where our witness to an unbeliever is to attract their attention by how we dress ? When Jesus spoke of letting our lights shine, how did He say that is done ? Good deeds in such a way that those watching will glorify God.

"In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." - Mathew 5:16

Don't you think the emphasis for witness and shining our lights is in the wrong area when we focus on dress ? And how do we do good works that are such that people are not looking at us as some goody, goody but they see God at work in us ? Shouldn't that be where our focus should be ? And if so, what will make our good deeds stand out from those that non-Christians do ?
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Re: Living With The Amish Youtube Series

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I think that what Josh might be speaking to, correct me if I am wrong, is it is a slippery slope. One thing leads to another, and another and then we look around and say how did things get like this? There is a path the modern church followed to get in the state they are in and a lot of it was a relaxing of standards to fit in to the world. At one time most did dress like the Anabaptist do but they followed the changes in fashion good or bad.

That is not to say dress is what matters. No, you are right Sudsy it is the heart. However, we can see the unevenness in the practices in dress as they are done in some conservative Anabaptist circles. Plus, this brings it back to the explanation given to outsiders on why they dress the way they do. It does not make sense to say women dress this way because of modesty and not conforming to the world yet men can conform to the world because they do not have the same issues women do.

Men have inappropriate clothing as well, and yes men can care about how they look especially when it comes to women.

Josh you mentioned about the strange men. I think this sister was talking about a man that made her feel uncomfortable or scared even. Sometimes standing out brings negative attention as well, and unfortunately people look at women as a easy target.
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