Ernie wrote:Sudsy wrote:I don't know about these Anglican Orders but just read about the different types on Wikipedia. I don't see such a thing in NT scriptures involving making vows but I do see where it says things like not getting married, if you can, to be more fully focused on serving God.
I believe under the New Covenant we can be a community of believers allowing for the Holy Spirit to develop sanctification and give ministry gifts in each individual's life and our role amongst believers is to encourage and pray for each other to draw close to God as He works in us to do our part in the body. As in giving, nothing needs to be out of obligation to anyone or anything except to God. Whatever we do, do to the glory of God. Basically, keep out of the way for the Spirit to work in and through us. I think man has tried to improve on this and attempted to force spirituality and has crossed into the Spirit's working area.
So lets skip the vow part. Do you think it is ok for a group of believers to agree follow certain disciplines so that they can better serve the Kingdom of God, as long as they let anyone else join their "order" who agrees to the same disciplines, and as long as they make it easy for a person to leave if they want to leave the "order"?
Firstly, those that have required disciplines to be part of their group are still being used of God in ways to further His Kingdom so who am I to say it is not ok. I believe God works inspite of our traditions. So, I'll just provide my reservations on establishing and agreeing to certain disciplines, fwiw.
I do not find any indication in the NT of establishing a group set of disciplines, mainly involving sanctification, to better serve the Kingdom of God. I think the earliest church who had all things in common did so as it reads - "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common." The oneness was to ensure there was no needy person among them. This should be the heart and soul of every community of believers to look after their own first and foremost.
What I mainly object to is how these disciplines so often involve the on-going process of sanctification. Sanctification, I believe, is an individual conviction that is on-going but develops in a group environment. We are warned to not 'force feed', so to speak or 'give meat' to a babe in Christ. And some will remain babes for years but may agree to comply with standards to be part of the group. I think creating sanctification standards is really messing with the work of the Holy Spirit in the spiritual growth of each individual. It may look good for everyone to follow these disciplines but agreeing to them does not mean they are a heart belief. The Pharisees had very detailed disciplines they followed but it had not changed their hearts. And I know some believe to follow the rules first and you will adopt them as personal convictions later. And some say this worked for them and I have no reason to doubt them.
It also seems to me that these sets of disciplines are too often used as special identifiers of how godly a group is compared to other groups. You can see comparisons made here on this forum all the time. There is a certain 'snobbish' attitude that comes across at times about how sanctified one Anabaptist group is over another.
Also, it seems to me that checking out each other's performance against these standards is a high priority with some groups. More attention is given to judging one another than focusing on reaching the world for Jesus.
Another con I think about sanctification disciplines is that some establish and enforce fellowship criteria based on performance as a believer whereas the excommunicating in the NT had to do with outright unrepented sinning of someone claiming to be a believer. I don't read where anyone was shunned or excommunicated for something like owning a TV, for instance. Or back then for a woman wearing a gold wedding band or etc, etc. Imo, fellowship should not be based on this type of criteria. And this gets back to a more Romans 14 view.
Myself, I prefer open communion and open fellowship. That is what our MB church follows so I fit in best there. Others here feel they operate best committing to a group's defined set of disciplines. Above all, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ including Evangelicals and Charismatics and Calvinists and Salvationists and others who have received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. None of us have or will have it all figured out in how best to further the Kingdom. But we can examine ourselves to see just how the Kingdom life described by Jesus and the apostles is evident in our lives and for me, I have lots of surrendering still to allow the Holy Spirit opportunity to work on various areas.
