Argumentative Mennonites

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Valerie
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:18 am
Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:53 am Do Mennonites argue over "doctrinal" issues?
Interpretations?
OR
Is it a case where as modern inventions have come out through the years that they have to determine whether their church will allow or disallow them? I know that's been the.challenges for the Amish.
In more conservative churches the doctrine is settled and arguing about it is not allowed.
Decisions are made by a bishop or "council"?

This reminds me of a conversation I had with an Amish woman years ago. We were talking about Amish that leave the Amish. Her comment was "why do they think they know more than the Bishop?"
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Gene
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Gene »

Far more hazardous is a general apathy, an unwillingness to defend an idea of importance regarding our walk with Christ. Or maybe that is unique to groups that are trending progressive while pretending they ain't. Like Conservative Mennonite Conference , which isn't conservative, isn't a conference and is barely Mennonite. Arguing is healthy if done correctly, meaning the combatants ultimately come to the correct position, obviously the one I had to begin with. Come to think of it, a lot of discord would be eliminated if my wisdom was solicited at the outset.
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HeIsRisen
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by HeIsRisen »

Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:53 am Do Mennonites argue over "doctrinal" issues?
Interpretations?
OR
Is it a case where as modern inventions have come out through the years that they have to determine whether their church will allow or disallow them? I know that's been the.challenges for the Amish.
So not Mennonite, but most the times I have seen the beginning of unfruitful argumentation it usually comes from people openly challenging tradition or basically issues of liberty (usually passionate younger vs an older conservative brother, but not always).

I have heard of there being some pretty big instances of argumentation over doctrinal issues in other churches, but they're usually closely coupled with issues of liberty, which makes me think it was more of a liberty issue than doctrinal to start. For instance, one group wanted to really emphasize that Jesus's blood was only for past sins, and not future sins. Therefore, to them that justified a bunch of what would be very strict dress code regulations for many Apostolics to keep folks out of sin (black stockings only, ankle length dresses only, larger coverings etc.) The doctrinal issue at face value doesn't seem like a huge deal, unless you had a very Protestant sympathizing congregation. To me that doesn't seem to me to be the case.

In my church specifically, I don't think that arguing over doctrinal issues would be entertained. However, the issues of liberty do come up on occasion, and you may hear about it quietly, but I think that it is well known that if someone tried to cause an uproar about a specific liberty topic, it would be either discussed quietly or shut down quickly. We really do our best to keep the peace in the church, and arguing liberty issues is typically counterproductive.

Not sure how much this would correlate with Mennonite churches, so your mileage may vary.
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Josh
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:35 am
Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:18 am
Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:53 am Do Mennonites argue over "doctrinal" issues?
Interpretations?
OR
Is it a case where as modern inventions have come out through the years that they have to determine whether their church will allow or disallow them? I know that's been the.challenges for the Amish.
In more conservative churches the doctrine is settled and arguing about it is not allowed.
Decisions are made by a bishop or "council"?

This reminds me of a conversation I had with an Amish woman years ago. We were talking about Amish that leave the Amish. Her comment was "why do they think they know more than the Bishop?"
Decisions were made in the 1500s or 1600s. There have been no significant doctrinal changes in most conservative groups for over 100 years, and often a lot longer.
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Josh
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Josh »

Gene wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:59 am Far more hazardous is a general apathy, an unwillingness to defend an idea of importance regarding our walk with Christ. Or maybe that is unique to groups that are trending progressive while pretending they ain't. Like Conservative Mennonite Conference
I thought this renamed to CMC.
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Sudsy
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:53 am Do Mennonites argue over "doctrinal" issues?
Interpretations?
OR
Is it a case where as modern inventions have come out through the years that they have to determine whether their church will allow or disallow them? I know that's been the.challenges for the Amish.
I believe scripture encourages discussion in seeking out truths but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. Some scriptures to consider -

Elders must be “temperate, self-controlled… not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome….” (1 Tim. 3:2-3)

Deacon’s wife/deaconness must not be “malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything” (1 Tim. 3:11).

“Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father” (1 Tim. 5:1).

Younger widows sometimes “get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house.  And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to” (1 Tim. 5:13).

“If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing.  He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain” (1 Tim. 6:3-5).

“Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care.  Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith” (1 Tim. 6:20-21).

“Keep reminding them of these things [God’s faithfulness in the gospel].  Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value and only ruins those who listen” (2 Tim. 2:14).

“Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.” (2 Tim. 2:16-17)

“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.  And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.  Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…” (2 Tim. 2:23-25).

“Teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.” (Titus 2:3)

“In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us” (Titus 2:7b-8).

“Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them…” (Titus 2:9).

“Remind the people… to slander no one….” (Titus 3:1, 2).

“Avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.  Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time.  After that, have nothing to do with him.  You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Titus 3:9-11)

“If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other” (Gal. 5:15).

To your first question, in my experiences in care groups in the MB church, we did discuss doctrinal issues and interpretations at times and often our pastor presented various views on a text in his Sunday messages. He would end with the view he had settled on and why. But in these care groups a good Spirit guided leader will know how to keep areas of dispute under control. Sometimes it becomes a matter of taking the subject from a group setting to a private one on one setting with the leader.

I remember getting into a common debate in a care group regarding Romans 2 text when the issue came up regarding the millions yet who have not heard the Gospel as we know it and they be sent to hell. Can one be saved who has never heard the Gospel ? (not an issue for a Calvinist :) ). After considering possibilities the leader moved on and got us back on the study lesson. Was this the right approach he took ? Perhaps if he was being lead by the Spirit who knows the best time and place for this to take place. Thoughts ?
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ohio jones
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by ohio jones »

Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:19 am
Gene wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:59 am Far more hazardous is a general apathy, an unwillingness to defend an idea of importance regarding our walk with Christ. Or maybe that is unique to groups that are trending progressive while pretending they ain't. Like Conservative Mennonite Conference
I thought this renamed to CMC.
And may again be renamed. More arguing about the name than about doctrine or practice.
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Josh
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Josh »

ohio jones wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:15 pm
Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:19 am
Gene wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:59 am Far more hazardous is a general apathy, an unwillingness to defend an idea of importance regarding our walk with Christ. Or maybe that is unique to groups that are trending progressive while pretending they ain't. Like Conservative Mennonite Conference
I thought this renamed to CMC.
And may again be renamed. More arguing about the name than about doctrine or practice.
The most amusing proposal was “RNC”, or “Rosedale Network of Churches”, considering your average CMC member is barely aware of what Rosedale is.
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Gene
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Gene »

Rosedale served a good purpose but acquired delusions of grandeur. It irritates me greatly that the organization that represents me and accepts my money seems embarrassed to carry the name that denotes our common theological understandings. Of course there is some misunderstanding of "Mennonite" but it does place one in a general place on the religious spectrum. "Christian" is also seen as a pejorative in some circles. Do we also disavow that label? Become Universalists?
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Valerie
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Re: Argumentative Mennonites

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:18 am
Valerie wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:35 am
Josh wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:18 am

In more conservative churches the doctrine is settled and arguing about it is not allowed.
Decisions are made by a bishop or "council"?

This reminds me of a conversation I had with an Amish woman years ago. We were talking about Amish that leave the Amish. Her comment was "why do they think they know more than the Bishop?"
Decisions were made in the 1500s or 1600s. There have been no significant doctrinal changes in most conservative groups for over 100 years, and often a lot longer.
Would those changes be decided by a Bishop or Council?
I think its different in Amish vs Mennonite as to how any changes come about.
If there were changes doctrinally 100 yrs ago or so- what prompted them? How were changes accepted? I think I remember that memo may have accepted remarriage in certain situations? But that is no longer true?
Amish & . Mennonite split early on but still both Anabaptists- the historical book i read about the beginnings of Anabaptism implied, or stated A LOT of arguing- perhaps it's been a pattern or no?

Scripture says we are to "contend for the faith once delivered to the saints" so is there a difference between contending & arguing?
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