The Anabaptist perception on life before The Flood!

[steve-in-kville]

How advanced of a culture was there before the flood? This is obviously pure speculation. I've read of there being evidence of electricity and such like. Did Noah have power tools to build the ark? What was the political climate like?

Keep it fun. No personal attacks. No modern-day politics.

[Neto]

Never heard that there was electricity, and never thought about that. But because I accept that everything that God created was, at least in the beginning, perfect, I do NOT accept the idea that unbelievers have about very primitive beginnings for humanity, no language or culture, etc. Technologically, there is an extremely wide range of such knowledge & inventions, when one compares isolated tribes and modern industrial societies. As "products of industrialism" we tend (!) to value such knowledge/abilities/capabilities as more "advanced", and the knowledge of the isolated tribe as in some way inferior, or "undeveloped". This reveals nothing more than our cultural world view, our collective value system. It reveals nothing in respect to the intelligence of people from these two groups of people.

With all of that "wind bagging" over, I would hesitate to assume that the pre-diluvian culture was technologically advanced in terms of our Western criteria. I think that their common knowledge (in terms of what was known by every single adult, in contrast to our situation, where large bodies of knowledge are possessed only by certain specialists, and often it is only that they "know where to find it") was superior to our world today. (A bit more wind bagging here: The Banawa, a society with very little "technology" have far greater common knowledge of the world around them, including knowledge of how to "read" the stars, the position of the moon, the significance of particular bird calls, etc., than we do today. In our case, "birders" might know about the bird calls and what they mean, astrologers would know how to read the stars and moon, etc. But there is a much reduced general knowledge of these things among the general population - the average adult.)

[MaxPC]

How advanced of a culture was there before the flood? This is obviously pure speculation. I've read of there being evidence of electricity and such like. Did Noah have power tools to build the ark? What was the political climate like?

Keep it fun. No personal attacks. No modern-day politics.

This is an interesting drill in speculation.

[Ken]

Electricity has always existed. The electromagnetic force is a fundamental force of nature.

Did the early Bronze Age societies depicted in Genesis harness electricity through technology? Which would require electrical generation and transmission? Is there the slightest Biblical or archeological evidence for that? I think it would take machines to even build generators and motors, as well as iron and steel or aluminum as materials. Even the Romans, as advanced as they were, didn't do that. Neither did Renaissance Europe. It basically took the industrial revolution to create the conditions, techniques, and materials necessary to harness electricity on an industrial scale. Plus a lot of basic science.

[RZehr]

So I believe:
- in a young earth, 6,000 years old.
- that the people in the old testament pre-flood lived as long as the Bible says they did. Hundreds of years old.
- in entropy and devolution in terms of humanity.

So these beliefs force me to wonder why it would be that degraded, humans post-flood have been able to invent so many things in the 2,000 years since the flood. I mean, it would stand to reason that a pre-flood superior human intellect, who was able to live multiple times longer that we do today, would be able to learn more in those life times, and pass knowledge along more generations, than we can today. As such, if we could invent anything in our 2,000 years, why couldn't they invent the same thing easier in 4,000 years? I think they could. So why don't we have evidence? The evidence could have all been lost. If we in 2023 are concerned about the environment, then assuming they passed our technology and civilization, they could have gotten to the place where essentially everything they made was biodegradable. And then the flood wiped everything out. Seems like there would still be something, and it is true that their are some strange findings that we don't really have good explanations for.

But do I actually believe that their was, say, digital technology in 3,000 B.C.? I don't really think that they did. But I have to admit that it would be possible - based on the three things listed that I do believe.

[Ken]

So I believe:
- in a young earth, 6,000 years old.
- that the people in the old testament pre-flood lived as long as the Bible says they did. Hundreds of years old.
- in entropy and devolution in terms of humanity.

So these beliefs force me to wonder why it would be that degraded, humans post-flood have been able to invent so many things in the 2,000 years since the flood. I mean, it would stand to reason that a pre-flood superior human intellect, who was able to live multiple times longer that we do today, would be able to learn more in those life times, and pass knowledge along more generations, than we can today. As such, if we could invent anything in our 2,000 years, why couldn't they invent the same thing easier in 4,000 years? I think they could. So why don't we have evidence? The evidence could have all been lost. If we in 2023 are concerned about the environment, then assuming they passed our technology and civilization, they could have gotten to the place where essentially everything they made was biodegradable. And then the flood wiped everything out. Seems like there would still be something, and it is true that their are some strange findings that we don't really have good explanations for.

But do I actually believe that their was, say, digital technology in 3,000 B.C.? I don't really think that they did. But I have to admit that it would be possible - based on the three things listed that I do believe.

Inventions don't happen out of the blue. One invention leads to the next which leads to the next.

You can't invent an iPhone without first having invented batteries, LDC displays, microprocessors, digital cameras, complex computer language and then complex software using that language, radio transmissions, and then the machines to make all of those things since none of them can be made by hand. You could take a modern iPhone back to say 1940 and it would be completely impossible for even the top scientists and industry to even replicate it even with a complete set of plans and information on how every aspect of it works. Since they would have no ability to even build the machines that build microchips and LCD displays. Which are themselves controlled by microchips and LCD displays. And there are critical components like Tellurium and Lithium that may not have been even mined, refined, and available back then.

Same thing with say a car. You need to have invented an internal combustion engine, electrical generators, pneumatic tires, steel, bearings, fasteners, transmissions, brakes, and finally the technology to drill for and refine gasoline and then distribute it across the land. And then the highway system to make them useful. Even a basic component like steel ball bearings is complex to manufacture. Not to mention all the other screws, bolts, and fasteners.

[RZehr]

Well, of course. Point being ignored, is the basic idea that the pre-flood had 4,000 years to build on these things with smarter and longer living people. Compared to us having only 2,000 years, and dumber and shorter life span.
Taking on these assumptions, why wouldn’t they have been able to invent more and better things than us? What am I missing? (Except, obviously, archeological evidence.)

[Ken]

Well, of course. Point being ignored, is the basic idea that the pre-flood had 4,000 years to build on these things with smarter and longer living people. Compared to us having only 2,000 years, and dumber and shorter life span.
Taking on these assumptions, why wouldn’t they have been able to invent more and better things than us? What am I missing? (Except, obviously, archeological evidence.)

Population densities? Technological advancement comes with high population densities and large cities. That is necessary for the sort of specialization required for advanced industry. Is there any evidence of giant cities during this time, either Biblical or archaeological?

And we have had much longer than 2000 years. Isn't the flood usually dated to about 2,000 BC give or take? Which would mean 4,100 years since the flood.

[ken_sylvania]

How advanced of a culture was there before the flood? This is obviously pure speculation. I've read of there being evidence of electricity and such like. Did Noah have power tools to build the ark? What was the political climate like?

Keep it fun. No personal attacks. No modern-day politics.

A certain preacher you used to hear once speculated in a sermon that Noah may have had a computer...

[Soloist]

Assuming they were very advanced, there are a few fairly certain conclusions we can draw. They had no space program nor did they know the height of the atmosphere which would be very suggestive they had no advanced aircraft. They did not appear to know how to make a ship either.
Not having those would almost certainly limit them to a pre-atomic age at best. These might seem wildly speculative but we can glean truth from Scripture.
The description of the ark is not a particularly sea worthy craft for ocean going and God didn’t say “build a sea going vessel” He gave specific instructions.

Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

This here is either a description of reaching for the land of the gods or trying to reach some lofty height. I suppose it could be just figurative but the point is why do it if they already had been to space.
I can believe they might have been industrialized… but I doubt much past that.
As for archeological evidence… maybe God destroyed everything with the flood? But we have seen ruined cities under the ocean…