Salvation without the Sermon on the Mount lifestyle?

[Josh]

I like Augustine, but I think his Just War doctrine was his biggest error.

[Sudsy]

Just to understand clearly, are you asserting that the activity that is proscribed by Christ, in scripture, goes beyond actual physical killing and at the same time one needs to have some sort of extra-biblical communication from God to clarify the appropriate course of action should your government ask you to deprive another human of life?

Yes. Murder according to NT scripture can be caused in our hearts - 'Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.' (1 John 3:15). Jesus says adultery is another sin that can be a heart issue. God is looking at what is really motivating us in our hearts.

When it comes to war I believe one can have no desire in their heart to kill another human yet God may use them in stopping some evil to serve His greater purpose. I would want the assurance in my heart by the Holy Spirit that my participation would be for the greater good of mankind and not out of any other motive, such as hating those who are killed. I do believe God guides us by His Spirit and that is not 'extra-biblical communication' as the scripture says the Holy Spirit has been given to us as our guide.

Does this answer your question ?

Yes that answered my question. But I find it unpersuasive. It relies on Human judgement over against a clear command. If hate is equated with killing, that does not mean that killing without hate meets with divine approval. It is impossible to know the future result of our actions in every instance. With some trepidation, I refer to JHY. (Insert here standard disclaimers regarding his personal conduct and conceding that anyone who ever was even in the same room with him should be banished from polite society) The "good war", WW2, waged to save western civilization, because of US support for the USSR, may well have enabled the communist carnage that was the latter half of the twentieth century. Stalin and Mao were truly horrible people. But we did not confront them directly. The costs were too great. So we accept, to some degree, Just War theory.

Galatians 6:10 instructs us to do good to all. It is really difficult to see how burning a person's family and salting his land, can in any fashion be called good. It may be good for us, not so much for him.

I understand your view but I have a difficult time seeing that standing by with no resistance as your family is being butchered in front of you as doing good to your family. Are they not included in the 'all' ?

So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Would it be 'doing good' if I engaged in killing some so many might live ? This is one of the distinctives of most Anabaptiets to most other believers in other Christian faith groups. Their answer would be 'no'.

There are various scriptures taken by Christians in various faith groups used to support their beliefs and I don't think there is any one group that has the truth about everything. Immersion baptisers view their mode of baptism as a 'clear command' yet various Anabaptists don't view it that way and chose an 'unscriptural mode'.

My view is that since all of us only know in part (1 Cor 13:9) and this text in Gal 6 talks about living according to the Spirit that this is where we are to seek our guidance. Obviously Christians have not ended up with the same belief in all matters so there is much yet to learn for most of us on being Spirit guided.

If my views on this are incorrect then this is an area that I have not received the truth through the Spirit but someday in His timing and my willingness to listen, He may correct my understanding.

[Soloist]

If my views on this are incorrect then this is an area that I have not received the truth through the Spirit but someday in His timing and my willingness to listen, He may correct my understanding.

sa 6:9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

[Sudsy]

If my views on this are incorrect then this is an area that I have not received the truth through the Spirit but someday in His timing and my willingness to listen, He may correct my understanding.

sa 6:9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Is this an exhortation or a rebuke if you are younger than 76. Context on this passage ?

“Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father” (1 Tim. 5:1).

[Josh]

I take the example of Jesus. He could have killed many (and done so righteously) yet he chose not to.

[Gene]

God, in perfect wisdom and power, stands by while His children are butchered. Who are we to presume to do differently if such action necessitates a direct explicit command of our Lord and Master, however much that offends our flesh and reason?

[KirkDaniel]

I believe God judges us according to our understanding. But this is not a purely passive thing for Him, a He is constantly working through the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

We can be children in understanding. There is room for growth and revelation of just what His words mean on various subjects. He is working to bring us into the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

I know several people that were saved wither before entering the military or while they were there. Their conversions were genuine and life-changing. They eventually came to the understanding that the military was no place of a Christian and they sought discharge. I would take issue with anyone who says they weren't saved before they left the service.

Do not forget that the founders of Anabaptism themselves were part of a church that was putting people to death. They were saved before they left or were excommunicated.

God is no respecter of persons, and He can and will save souls wherever they are. He will also lead and guide them in His own wise time.

Many Anabaptists say they believe in non-resistance, but are some of the most gossiping people I know. There is more than one way to kill a person. James 3:8-10

[Swiss Bro]

I like Augustine, but I think his Just War doctrine was his biggest error.

What about predestination and infant baptism? Afaik he was a champion of those as well.

[Sudsy]

Many Christians, their churches, and especially their church history, centered on killing Christians, are as far away from the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount as you can get. Are they saved?

This is an important question because Matthew calls the Sermon on the Mount the doctrine of Christ (Matthew 7:28). And John says any who do not have the doctrine of Christ do not have God (2 John 9–11). KJV Translation

Regarding the last text referred to ( 2 John 9-11) - I believe in the context beginning at verse 7 this is talking about people who deny that Jesus came in a real body. Many believers who engaged in wars do not deny that Jesus came in a real body.

[Josh]

I like Augustine, but I think his Just War doctrine was his biggest error.

What about predestination and infant baptism? Afaik he was a champion of those as well.

Those are the other significant errors I think he made.

For the record, I like most of what he said. I really wish he weren’t a “doctor of the church”, though. He’s the most problematic one.

As far as his personal life he was an amazing bishop who converted many people.