Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:10 pmI doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation.
Interesting thought. Do I understand your thought correctly in that you feel it was probably permissible for the aforementioned folks to engage in said killing because the view which they held of God (and by extension, the teachings of Jesus) was one where He allowed them to kill to restrain evil in the world? Essentially "just war" theology?
God will be the final judge regarding our salvation. My understanding of scripture causes me to doubt that all born again believers who participated in wars and killed others have forfeited their salvation. Just as I doubt those Christians who withdraw themselves or isolate themselves from sinners in the world that need Jesus, they, too, will be judged for their ways of what is being obedient and what is not. If truly born again, we will be judged for our works and receive rewards accordingly but will still be saved. There is only one unforgivable sin - 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. (And no doubt there are differing opinions on what this means).
If I were called by my earthly country to go to war, I would seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in that decision. What other believers do is what they will be accountable for. I don't think I need a 'Jusf War Theory' when I have the Holy Spirit as my guide.
Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:10 pmI doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation.
Interesting thought. Do I understand your thought correctly in that you feel it was probably permissible for the aforementioned folks to engage in said killing because the view which they held of God (and by extension, the teachings of Jesus) was one where He allowed them to kill to restrain evil in the world? Essentially "just war" theology?
God will be the final judge regarding our salvation. My understanding of scripture causes me to doubt that all born again believers who participated in wars and killed others have forfeited their salvation. Just as I doubt those Christians who withdraw themselves or isolate themselves from sinners in the world that need Jesus, they, too, will be judged for their ways of what is being obedient and what is not. If truly born again, we will be judged for our works and receive rewards accordingly but will still be saved. There is only one unforgivable sin - 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. (And no doubt there are differing opinions on what this means).
If I were called by my earthly country to go to war, I would seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in that decision. What other believers do is what they will be accountable for. I don't think I need a 'Jusf War Theory' when I have the Holy Spirit as my guide.
Thank you for clarifying. I occasionally forget how much the general tenor of this site and its active participants (and I mean this as observation, not insult) are increasingly not traditionally Mennonite/Anabaptist in their theology or practice - it was radically different a decade or so ago. Perhaps I should phrase the underlying question a bit differently, and personally - do you feel you could personally take the life of another in good conscience if you did so under orders from your government or to protect another/others, without disobeying the teachings of Jesus and the apostles on the subject?
Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:39 pm
Interesting thought. Do I understand your thought correctly in that you feel it was probably permissible for the aforementioned folks to engage in said killing because the view which they held of God (and by extension, the teachings of Jesus) was one where He allowed them to kill to restrain evil in the world? Essentially "just war" theology?
God will be the final judge regarding our salvation. My understanding of scripture causes me to doubt that all born again believers who participated in wars and killed others have forfeited their salvation. Just as I doubt those Christians who withdraw themselves or isolate themselves from sinners in the world that need Jesus, they, too, will be judged for their ways of what is being obedient and what is not. If truly born again, we will be judged for our works and receive rewards accordingly but will still be saved. There is only one unforgivable sin - 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. (And no doubt there are differing opinions on what this means).
If I were called by my earthly country to go to war, I would seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in that decision. What other believers do is what they will be accountable for. I don't think I need a 'Just War Theory' when I have the Holy Spirit as my guide.
Thank you for clarifying. I occasionally forget how much the general tenor of this site and its active participants (and I mean this as observation, not insult) are increasingly not traditionally Mennonite/Anabaptist in their theology or practice - it was radically different a decade or so ago. Perhaps I should phrase the underlying question a bit differently, and personally - do you feel you could personally take the life of another in good conscience if you did so under orders from your government or to protect another/others, without disobeying the teachings of Jesus and the apostles on the subject?
I am not personally convinced that there is not any situation where Jesus and the apostles teachings prohibit killing another human. If and when that situation ever arises, I will need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide me in that response. If I get it wrong, God forgives all sin, except one.
Also, when it comes to murder, Jesus and the apostles speak of it as something beyond taking a physical life. In Matthew 5, Jesus said , even unrighteous anger or verbal abuse against someone was subject to the same judgment in God's sight as taking that person's life. In 1 John 3:15 . the apostle writes - 'Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.' A believer can regard themselves as a pacifist but are they a pacifist as scripture speaks of violence ?
Just to understand clearly, are you asserting that the activity that is proscribed by Christ, in scripture, goes beyond actual physical killing and at the same time one needs to have some sort of extra-biblical communication from God to clarify the appropriate course of action should your government ask you to deprive another human of life?
Gene wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:35 am
Just to understand clearly, are you asserting that the activity that is proscribed by Christ, in scripture, goes beyond actual physical killing and at the same time one needs to have some sort of extra-biblical communication from God to clarify the appropriate course of action should your government ask you to deprive another human of life?
Yes. Murder according to NT scripture can be caused in our hearts - 'Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.' (1 John 3:15). Jesus says adultery is another sin that can be a heart issue. God is looking at what is really motivating us in our hearts.
When it comes to war I believe one can have no desire in their heart to kill another human yet God may use them in stopping some evil to serve His greater purpose. I would want the assurance in my heart by the Holy Spirit that my participation would be for the greater good of mankind and not out of any other motive, such as hating those who are killed. I do believe God guides us by His Spirit and that is not 'extra-biblical communication' as the scripture says the Holy Spirit has been given to us as our guide.
Holy Spirit would never contradict the teachings of Jesus.
This simply is the problem of “spirit” led people. They almost without failure teach and practice things that violate the teachings of Jesus. The Spirit is subject to the Master and will not teach otherwise. If one asks “did God really say that? Did God really mean what He said?”
One should learn from Balaam.
0 x
Soloist, but I hate singing alone Soloist, but my wife posts with me Soloist, but I believe in community Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:50 pm
Holy Spirit would never contradict the teachings of Jesus.
This simply is the problem of “spirit” led people. They almost without failure teach and practice things that violate the teachings of Jesus. The Spirit is subject to the Master and will not teach otherwise. If one asks “did God really say that? Did God really mean what He said?”
One should learn from Balaam.
I met someone who says the Spirit guided her to have an affair and leave her husband. And I also met someone who says the Spirit told him he could fool around with girls, which hurt his wife very badly.
When challenged on this they just told me that I can’t know what God tells them, only they fan, and how can I question God?
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:50 pm
Holy Spirit would never contradict the teachings of Jesus.
This simply is the problem of “spirit” led people. They almost without failure teach and practice things that violate the teachings of Jesus. The Spirit is subject to the Master and will not teach otherwise. If one asks “did God really say that? Did God really mean what He said?”
One should learn from Balaam.
I agree the 'Holy Spirit would never contradict the teachings of Jesus'. But I also believe that interpretations on what Jesus said is not understood the same for all believers. Do some credit the Holy Spirit with their interpretations in these interpretations ? I think most would. Do some even seek the Holy Spirit's illumination of scripture ? Some do, some don't.
Romans 8:14 - 'For all who are allowing themselves to be led by the Spirit of God are sons of God' AMP
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:50 pm
Holy Spirit would never contradict the teachings of Jesus.
This simply is the problem of “spirit” led people. They almost without failure teach and practice things that violate the teachings of Jesus. The Spirit is subject to the Master and will not teach otherwise. If one asks “did God really say that? Did God really mean what He said?”
One should learn from Balaam.
I met someone who says the Spirit guided her to have an affair and leave her husband. And I also met someone who says the Spirit told him he could fool around with girls, which hurt his wife very badly.
When challenged on this they just told me that I can’t know what God tells them, only they fan, and how can I question God?
For sure, we can say all kinds of things to justify our choices. That does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit has been given to us for guidance and it is up to us to know His voice from all other voices. I believe this is an on-going learning experience for those who do believe He speaks to every believer personally if we give Him ear.
Gene wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:35 am
Just to understand clearly, are you asserting that the activity that is proscribed by Christ, in scripture, goes beyond actual physical killing and at the same time one needs to have some sort of extra-biblical communication from God to clarify the appropriate course of action should your government ask you to deprive another human of life?
Yes. Murder according to NT scripture can be caused in our hearts - 'Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.' (1 John 3:15). Jesus says adultery is another sin that can be a heart issue. God is looking at what is really motivating us in our hearts.
When it comes to war I believe one can have no desire in their heart to kill another human yet God may use them in stopping some evil to serve His greater purpose. I would want the assurance in my heart by the Holy Spirit that my participation would be for the greater good of mankind and not out of any other motive, such as hating those who are killed. I do believe God guides us by His Spirit and that is not 'extra-biblical communication' as the scripture says the Holy Spirit has been given to us as our guide.
Does this answer your question ?
Yes that answered my question. But I find it unpersuasive. It relies on Human judgement over against a clear command. If hate is equated with killing, that does not mean that killing without hate meets with divine approval. It is impossible to know the future result of our actions in every instance. With some trepidation, I refer to JHY. (Insert here standard disclaimers regarding his personal conduct and conceding that anyone who ever was even in the same room with him should be banished from polite society) The "good war", WW2, waged to save western civilization, because of US support for the USSR, may well have enabled the communist carnage that was the latter half of the twentieth century. Stalin and Mao were truly horrible people. But we did not confront them directly. The costs were too great. So we accept, to some degree, Just War theory.
Galatians 6:10 instructs us to do good to all. It is really difficult to see how burning a person's family and salting his land, can in any fashion be called good. It may be good for us, not so much for him.
