Augustine & Constantinian Hybrid?

[MaxPC]

From the Traditions thread:

But I would not trust the tradition that was preserved after the implementation of the Constantinian Hybrid. That seems to the time when early church tradition was distorted and voices like Augustine's took over in its place (at least in Western Christianity).

I interested in understanding this thought as these labels and definitions are different from mine.

-What is the "Constantinian Hybrid"
-What are the concerns over Augustine?

[MaxPC]

That's supposed to be "I'm interested..."

[Bootstrap]

I think the phrase "Constantinian Hybrid" comes from David Bercot's writings. We have quite a few people here who are very familiar with them, they can correct me if I get any of this wrong.

Bercot often seems to divide Christianity into two separate and opposing camps: those who advocate "the Constantinian hybrid" that marries church and state versus "Kingdom Christians" who advocate what Bercot calls the simple kingdom gospel of Jesus. To Bercot, rejecting alliances with the State is an important part of that kingdom gospel. "My kingdom is not of this world, else would my disciples fight" is an important text to meditate on. I've heard some people talk about Constantinian churches - Catholic, Orthodox, the churches of the Protestant reformation - versus Kingdom Christians - Anabaptists, Mennonites, and conservative Quakers.

This ties into a lot of the major themes you see us discuss on MennoDiscuss - separation of church and state, the role of politics in the lives of Christians and the church. When we talk about Sattler or Marpeck, we are talking about how we in the Church relate to the authority of the State and the work that it does.

Augustine provided the theology that backs up much of historical Constantinianism. He was Constantine's greatest theologian.

[Valerie]

I think the phrase "Constantinian Hybrid" comes from David Bercot's writings. We have quite a few people here who are very familiar with them, they can correct me if I get any of this wrong.

Bercot often seems to divide Christianity into two separate and opposing camps: those who advocate "the Constantinian hybrid" that marries church and state versus "Kingdom Christians" who advocate what Bercot calls the simple kingdom gospel of Jesus. To Bercot, rejecting alliances with the State is an important part of that kingdom gospel. "My kingdom is not of this world, else would my disciples fight" is an important text to meditate on. I've heard some people talk about Constantinian churches - Catholic, Orthodox, the churches of the Protestant reformation - versus Kingdom Christians - Anabaptists, Mennonites, and conservative Quakers.

This ties into a lot of the major themes you see us discuss on MennoDiscuss - separation of church and state, the role of politics in the lives of Christians and the church. When we talk about Sattler or Marpeck, we are talking about how we in the Church relate to the authority of the State and the work that it does.

Augustine provided the theology that backs up much of historical Constantinianism. He was Constantine's greatest theologian.

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

I guess I wonder how much David Bercot has influenced modern day Anabaptists in some of these terms

[GaryK]

I think the phrase "Constantinian Hybrid" comes from David Bercot's writings. We have quite a few people here who are very familiar with them, they can correct me if I get any of this wrong.

Bercot often seems to divide Christianity into two separate and opposing camps: those who advocate "the Constantinian hybrid" that marries church and state versus "Kingdom Christians" who advocate what Bercot calls the simple kingdom gospel of Jesus. To Bercot, rejecting alliances with the State is an important part of that kingdom gospel. "My kingdom is not of this world, else would my disciples fight" is an important text to meditate on. I've heard some people talk about Constantinian churches - Catholic, Orthodox, the churches of the Protestant reformation - versus Kingdom Christians - Anabaptists, Mennonites, and conservative Quakers.

This ties into a lot of the major themes you see us discuss on MennoDiscuss - separation of church and state, the role of politics in the lives of Christians and the church. When we talk about Sattler or Marpeck, we are talking about how we in the Church relate to the authority of the State and the work that it does.

Augustine provided the theology that backs up much of historical Constantinianism. He was Constantine's greatest theologian.

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

I guess I wonder how much David Bercot has influenced modern day Anabaptists in some of these terms

I'm not aware that Bercot became an Anglican priest but I think he may have attended an Anglican church for a time.

[Bootstrap]

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

I think Bercot's teaching is rather different from that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but I don't know their teachings all that well, and some people here know his teachings better than I do. I'm much more familiar with Mennonite and Anabaptist teachings. I think this might summarize their views, but it's just something snagged of the Internet:

The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God’s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.

Any Bercot experts want to weigh in on how much that rhymes with his teachings?

Mennonites and Anabaptists tend to think of ourselves as the Body of Christ, and think in terms of fellowship, discernment, etc. We were there a lot earlier than the Jehovah's Witnesses, we didn't get our teachings from them. Here's a good summary of Menno Simon's teachings on this, which were strongly influenced by living in a time where simply following the clear teaching of Scripture could get you killed by Catholics, Lutherans, Zwinglians, and Calvinists who were all working directly with the State to make that happen.

[MaxPC]

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

You're right; he was once an Anglican priest. Was born in Texas, family was Jehovah's Witness.

Adam, since it was your quote that started this thread, I'm interested in your thoughts on the OP below:

From the Traditions thread:

But I would not trust the tradition that was preserved after the implementation of the Constantinian Hybrid. That seems to the time when early church tradition was distorted and voices like Augustine's took over in its place (at least in Western Christianity).

I'm interested in understanding this thought as these labels and definitions are different from mine.

-What is the "Constantinian Hybrid"
-What are the concerns over Augustine?

[Valerie]

I'm not aware that Bercot became an Anglican priest but I think he may have attended an Anglican church for a time.

From the back of "A Dictonary of Early Christian Beliefs" by David Bercot:

"David W. Bercot, an Anglican priest and an attorney, graduated from Stephen F. Austin State University and Baylor University School of Law. He is the author of Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up and is a member of the North American Patristics Society"

Apparently before becoming Anabaptist-

Boot- I stated some of his terminology may be influencing 'modern' day Anabaptists such as you pointed out-

[GaryK]

I'm not aware that Bercot became an Anglican priest but I think he may have attended an Anglican church for a time.

From the back of "A Dictonary of Early Christian Beliefs" by David Bercot:

"David W. Bercot, an Anglican priest and an attorney, graduated from Stephen F. Austin State University and Baylor University School of Law. He is the author of Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up and is a member of the North American Patristics Society"

Apparently before becoming Anabaptist-

Boot- I stated some of his terminology may be influencing 'modern' day Anabaptists such as you pointed out-

I stand corrected.

[MaxPC]

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

You're right; he was once an Anglican priest. Was born in Texas, family was Jehovah's Witness.

Adam, since it was your quote that started this thread, I'm interested in your thoughts on the OP below:

From the Traditions thread:

But I would not trust the tradition that was preserved after the implementation of the Constantinian Hybrid. That seems to the time when early church tradition was distorted and voices like Augustine's took over in its place (at least in Western Christianity).

I'm interested in understanding this thought as these labels and definitions are different from mine.

-What is the "Constantinian Hybrid"
-What are the concerns over Augustine?