Augustine & Constantinian Hybrid?

[ohio jones]

[MaxPC]

Dal segno

Adam, since it was your quote that started this thread, I'm interested in your thoughts on the OP below:

From the Traditions thread:

But I would not trust the tradition that was preserved after the implementation of the Constantinian Hybrid. That seems to the time when early church tradition was distorted and voices like Augustine's took over in its place (at least in Western Christianity).

I'm interested in understanding this thought as these labels and definitions are different from mine.

-What is the "Constantinian Hybrid"
-What are the concerns over Augustine?

[Adam]

David Bercot was Jehovah Witness- then became an Anglican Priest- correct? Then Anabaptist- I think he may be trying to combine the 3 somehow (Jehovah Witness share in some of Anabaptists separation of church and state & non-resistance stance if I am not mistaken).

You're right; he was once an Anglican priest. Was born in Texas, family was Jehovah's Witness.

Adam, since it was your quote that started this thread, I'm interested in your thoughts on the OP below:

From the Traditions thread:

But I would not trust the tradition that was preserved after the implementation of the Constantinian Hybrid. That seems to the time when early church tradition was distorted and voices like Augustine's took over in its place (at least in Western Christianity).

I'm interested in understanding this thought as these labels and definitions are different from mine.

-What is the "Constantinian Hybrid"
-What are the concerns over Augustine?

The term Constantinian Hybrid is used in Leonard Verduin's book The Anatomy of a Hybrid, which was written in 1976 (when David Bercot was still a JW). It is a difficult read, but basically discusses how church and state were separate in the early church but then reunited under Constantine. The implication of the church and state being combined is that if you have membership in one, then you must have membership in the other. If you are a citizen of the state, then you are a member of the church. You can't just be a citizen of the state, and you can't just be a member of the church. You have to be both. From this thinking arises doctrines like infant baptism (because if you are born into the state, you are also born into the church), it also lays the groundwork for Christians serving in the military and in government offices because the church and church members will of necessity be involved in such activities since there is no separation of church and state. This was the situation in the Old Testament and in most primitive religions, but God created a new paradigm in the New Testament in which membership in the church was separate from citizenship within a state. Those are the basic premises of the book.

While I am no expert, my concerns with Augustine is that he seemingly changes Ante-Nicene teachings about nonparticipation by Christians in the government and nonresistance to the point that he teaches that it is okay for a Christian to serve as a soldier for a government and even to kill others as long as he does so with love in his heart. That is not a direct quote but my summary of his teachings on the matter. I think this is totally at odds with the teachings of the New Testament and the witness of the early church. Augustine also provided the theological grounds for governments to persecute and kill Christians who were seemingly unorthodox. Under Augustine's theological guidance the church went from being persecuted to doing the persecution.

The term hybrid refers to trying to combine the work of the church with the work of the state. Following the writings and witness of the Ante-Nicene church, this cannot be done. But Augustine, through his extremely influential writings, made it possible. As I understand it, he is also the one who introduced the idea that God arbitrarily predestines humans to either heaven or hell and that humans have no free will, an idea that is totally absent in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, who overwhelmingly support the notion that humans have free will and that God's predestination is based on his foreknowledge of what we humans will do by our own free will. But if we are born into the state and born into the church, then not having free will makes sense, but if the church and state are separate and we choose to become part of the church (with the help and leading of the Holy Spirit), then Augustine's view of predestination does not make sense.

But again, I am not an expert on Augustine, and perhaps those who are will have more things to say on these matters. I also do not have good internet here in Immi village, so it is hard for me to research and get Augustine's direct quotes on such matters. Perhaps those with better internet could do so.

[MaxPC]

Thank you, Adam. You were clear in your explanation. Some interesting concepts for rumination.