Modesty & Simplicity

[Sudsy]

No, it does not. There are people who own Lamborghini's and spend millions to help the world. They spend much more than they did on the car.

When Jesus watched people putting money into the treasury in the temple, he said that the widow that gave two mites gave more than anybody else because she gave all that she had to live on while the others gave out of their excess. We tend to judge by how much we give, but I think God is more concerned with how much we keep. I don't think giving millions of dollars justifies buying oneself a Lamborghini in the eyes of God.

I would apply this to a $ 30 lunch also. I can get a $ 5 lunch that serves my mid day meal quite adequately. With that said, I confess I occasionally live quite extravagantly because I can. I'm just not comfortable with doing that if I stop and think about it.

[RZehr]

This is why I think comparing yourself with your society/neighbors/peers, and comparing with the entirety of mankind, are two different topics. Each comparison has importance. On this subject, their is valid overlap considering the fact of limited resources, and the ease of sending money all over the globe. My intention was not to talk about that, but rather to take a narrower look at this topic, and consider how our choices affect ourselves and our neighbors and peers.

The word mansion means a very large, impressive, or stately residence. A large imposing residence. Some of the synonyms listed are castle, estate, manor, palace.
Luxury definition is a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort. Some of the synonyms listed are Babylonian, deluxe, opulent, palatial, sumptuous.

If we want to compare ourselves to the whole the world, then certain words such as mansion and luxury lose their meaning, since there is always something more extreme. The very definitions get watered down so badly that it is impossible to use them profitably. The definitions and the conversations get lost, and bogged down in relativism. And yet they are words with meanings, it's just that you need to understand how they are being used.

This is why, for the sake of moving the conversation forward, I proposed the setting to be middle class North America, year 2017. Not that we are the standard of anything, it’s just that I’m guessing that is a benchmark most of us on this forum can at least find relatable.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

I think there will be a trade off.
Learning the skills takes time and adjusting to the culture takes time and it could feel like a deterrent to getting the Bible translated in a timely manner. However as it is, unless you make your comforts available to the natives, I think you will need to spend significant time trying to convince or explain why you can or should live differently then them.
This is just my perspective as a spectator. I have no particular knowledge or experience in your world.

Interestingly enough, the people whom we live amongst are delighted that we have built our house in their village. They do not expect us to live in a bush house. And because they know that we are here to serve the Enga people and because we are learning their language, they are happy to have us in their community. If we were just here to serve ourselves, however, we would not receive a warm reception.

Because of their long history of tribal fighting, the government has not provided many services to the community where we live. They seem to be changing their ways now, and having a western style house in their community supports that idea. In fact, the week we moved in, a government agency came to help them start growing onions by committing to build a model farm. One of the men from the agency said that when he saw our house, he felt like it would be a good community to help.

Many Christians in America and Canada are living in mansions and driving Lamborghinis already, even those who are living simply and modestly, they just don't realize it.

As compared to where you are presently?

Yes, but I know RZehr wants to keep this focused on the North American context, so I will say no more about third world vs. first world differences other than to remind people that when you look at another's house and think that it is rich and extravagant, there are billions of people in the world looking at your modest and simple house and thinking the same thing.

When Jesus watched people putting money into the treasury in the temple, he said that the widow that gave two mites gave more than anybody else because she gave all that she had to live on while the others gave out of their excess. We tend to judge by how much we give, but I think God is more concerned with how much we keep. I don't think giving millions of dollars justifies buying oneself a Lamborghini in the eyes of God.

Just because you are rich does not mean you do not have a servant's heart or give freely. It seems the only answer most would accept would be for the rich person to become poor. Not that there is anything wrong with being poor (I am), but a little strange considering most Christians I run across on a regular basis will not adjust their standard of living at all. If we were to follow Jesus exactly then we should not have anything besides the clothes on our back.

I am often appalled at missionaries who turn their nose up at my house because it is under construction. I get questions like, "I am not sure what I would do without a finished kitchen.", or "Bless your heart." Like it is horrible to work as we can afford, and not just go get a loan. What kind of mission did they leave I wonder?

I am not trying to be smart but I am curious... how is it justified for you not to live like the locals because you do not feel like you can but someone else can not own a particular car because to you it is extravagant?

You said yourself your house is extravagant or more than what they are used to. Why not live like they do? You have just proven what Ernie said people judge because of what the see or think you have not really what your heart is doing.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

This is why I think comparing yourself with your society/neighbors/peers, and comparing with the entirety of mankind, are two different topics. Each comparison has importance. On this subject, their is valid overlap considering the fact of limited resources, and the ease of sending money all over the globe. My intention was not to talk about that, but rather to take a narrower look at this topic, and consider how our choices affect ourselves and our neighbors and peers.

The word mansion means a very large, impressive, or stately residence. A large imposing residence. Some of the synonyms listed are castle, estate, manor, palace.
Luxury definition is a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort. Some of the synonyms listed are Babylonian, deluxe, opulent, palatial, sumptuous.

If we want to compare ourselves to the whole the world, then certain words such as mansion and luxury lose their meaning, since there is always something more extreme. The very definitions get watered down so badly that it is impossible to use them profitably. The definitions and the conversations get lost, and bogged down in relativism. And yet they are words with meanings, it's just that you need to understand how they are being used.

This is why, for the sake of moving the conversation forward, I proposed the setting to be middle class North America, year 2017. Not that we are the standard of anything, it’s just that I’m guessing that is a benchmark most of us on this forum can at least find relatable.

Who in the middle class can afford what was asked? What would be the new extravagance?

[RZehr]

No, it does not. There are people who own Lamborghini's and spend millions to help the world. They spend much more than they did on the car.

When Jesus watched people putting money into the treasury in the temple, he said that the widow that gave two mites gave more than anybody else because she gave all that she had to live on while the others gave out of their excess. We tend to judge by how much we give, but I think God is more concerned with how much we keep. I don't think giving millions of dollars justifies buying oneself a Lamborghini in the eyes of God.

I would apply this to a $ 30 lunch also. I can get a $ 5 lunch that serves my mid day meal quite adequately. With that said, I confess I occasionally live quite extravagantly because I can. I'm just not comfortable with doing that if I stop and think about it.

The root of this discomfort is what I'm trying to figure out. What is the cause of it? I think it is a very common and widespread feeling across Christianity. There isn't a verse that says "Thou should feel uncomfortable buying a mansion and $30 lunches". Or is there?

[RZehr]

This is why I think comparing yourself with your society/neighbors/peers, and comparing with the entirety of mankind, are two different topics. Each comparison has importance. On this subject, their is valid overlap considering the fact of limited resources, and the ease of sending money all over the globe. My intention was not to talk about that, but rather to take a narrower look at this topic, and consider how our choices affect ourselves and our neighbors and peers.

The word mansion means a very large, impressive, or stately residence. A large imposing residence. Some of the synonyms listed are castle, estate, manor, palace.
Luxury definition is a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort. Some of the synonyms listed are Babylonian, deluxe, opulent, palatial, sumptuous.

If we want to compare ourselves to the whole the world, then certain words such as mansion and luxury lose their meaning, since there is always something more extreme. The very definitions get watered down so badly that it is impossible to use them profitably. The definitions and the conversations get lost, and bogged down in relativism. And yet they are words with meanings, it's just that you need to understand how they are being used.

This is why, for the sake of moving the conversation forward, I proposed the setting to be middle class North America, year 2017. Not that we are the standard of anything, it’s just that I’m guessing that is a benchmark most of us on this forum can at least find relatable.

Who in the middle class can afford what was asked? What would be the new extravagance?

I'm asking if simply living in the mansion or driving a Lamborghini would cause you to be uneasy or not. You are correct that middle class can't afford them. But say you had a rich aunt that died and left it to you. Or for some reason you were able to buy them at a small fraction of the value.
I'm trying to strip the concept down to simply owning it, or being identified as the owner of such. Because even though in reality you were a good steward of Gods money in accepting such a gift, or you made an astute business deal, the people that see you do not know that part. Does it matter what they think? After all, its not that we overspent or anything.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

This is why I think comparing yourself with your society/neighbors/peers, and comparing with the entirety of mankind, are two different topics. Each comparison has importance. On this subject, their is valid overlap considering the fact of limited resources, and the ease of sending money all over the globe. My intention was not to talk about that, but rather to take a narrower look at this topic, and consider how our choices affect ourselves and our neighbors and peers.

The word mansion means a very large, impressive, or stately residence. A large imposing residence. Some of the synonyms listed are castle, estate, manor, palace.
Luxury definition is a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort. Some of the synonyms listed are Babylonian, deluxe, opulent, palatial, sumptuous.

If we want to compare ourselves to the whole the world, then certain words such as mansion and luxury lose their meaning, since there is always something more extreme. The very definitions get watered down so badly that it is impossible to use them profitably. The definitions and the conversations get lost, and bogged down in relativism. And yet they are words with meanings, it's just that you need to understand how they are being used.

This is why, for the sake of moving the conversation forward, I proposed the setting to be middle class North America, year 2017. Not that we are the standard of anything, it’s just that I’m guessing that is a benchmark most of us on this forum can at least find relatable.

Who in the middle class can afford what was asked? What would be the new extravagance?

I'm asking if simply living in the mansion or driving a Lamborghini would cause you to be uneasy or not. You are correct that middle class can't afford them. But say you had a rich aunt that died and left it to you. Or for some reason you were able to buy them at a small fraction of the value.
I'm trying to strip the concept down to simply owning it, or being identified as the owner of such. Because even though in reality you were a good steward of Gods money in accepting such a gift, or you made an astute business deal, the people that see you do not know that part. Does it matter what they think? After all, its not that we overspent or anything.

Doing this on my phone so we will see how this goes. lol.

If I sold it because of others it would be because of the practices I agreed to uphold which would be to avoid extravagance.

If I was not under such practices I would still flip the car or house. The cost of maintenance would be more than I could afford. It would not be because I thought it wrong in just owning it but because it is not practical for me.

[Sudsy]

When Jesus watched people putting money into the treasury in the temple, he said that the widow that gave two mites gave more than anybody else because she gave all that she had to live on while the others gave out of their excess. We tend to judge by how much we give, but I think God is more concerned with how much we keep. I don't think giving millions of dollars justifies buying oneself a Lamborghini in the eyes of God.

I would apply this to a $ 30 lunch also. I can get a $ 5 lunch that serves my mid day meal quite adequately. With that said, I confess I occasionally live quite extravagantly because I can. I'm just not comfortable with doing that if I stop and think about it.

The root of this discomfort is what I'm trying to figure out. What is the cause of it? I think it is a very common and widespread feeling across Christianity. There isn't a verse that says "Thou should feel uncomfortable buying a mansion and $30 lunches". Or is there?

The root of my discomfort is not that I am not living as simple as Jesus did (that I don't believe is a requirement in following Jesus teachings) but rather I am kept very aware of just how far my spending can go for others even here in North America. My extravagant spendings are due to my selfishness and my pride. My flesh is selfish and proud. Only walking in the Spirit will I deny myself and put others before myself.

So, I would say this battle between the flesh and the Spirit is what is at the core of this. The flesh is prideful and selfish whereas the Spirit is humble and puts others ahead of self.

[Josh]

Most of the lifestyle of wealthy people consists of things they get for free by being wealthy / influential, or things they spend money on because they save time. These things are harder to see from the outside, and non-wealthy people don't really understand these things.

Sometimes much of your lifestyle is underwritten by your business or your employer. Right now if you saw me driving around you'd see me in a 2016 Camaro. That might look extravagant to some. Not that long ago I was in a 2017 Benz, same story.

Thing is, I reserved a basic car according to my company's travel policy, and since I rent a lot, the rental agency tries to put me in their nicest car.

Another time recently I took a semi-chartered flight that wasn't really that extravagant, but to an outsider it would look like I was flying on a private jet. Most people would think that pretty luxurious. I selected the flight because the timing made it possible for me to visit two cities instead of one, which helped me achieve some business objectives. (The price was also the same as taking another airline on a much longer, slower route, but an outsider would have no idea about that.)

The real question is what we have in our life to be accountable to. I have 3 brethren I meet with for financial and lifestyle accountability. I also have my church leaders which I talk to about my life and whose input I accept. And my employer has policies about what is a wise and unwise use of company budgets.

Ultimately, if the occupation and stewardship God gives you means you sometimes use luxurious resources, accept the responsibility to make sure you are showing a kingdom Christian witness. There aren't very many people in my world showing an Anabaptist Christian witnesss. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one they may see for weeks, months, or even years.

[ken_sylvania]

I think the appearance of the thing would be a very real part of why I would be uncomfortable owning a luxury vehicle or a dwelling noticeably in the upper class in my neighborhood. I think we need to recognize that we are making a statement by what we do, what we wear, what we drive, and what we live in. That statement means something to those around us, and the only way we can influence what that statement means to those who observe it is by changing the statement. Sometimes it seems we try and do like Lewis Carroll's character Humpty Dumpty:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

If we are wearing, driving, and living in the things that are highly esteemed among men, we had better not be surprised if they conclude that we have these things because we highly esteem them as well. Not sure if this is making much sense...