Modesty & Simplicity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sunbeam »

Adam wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!
I understand the overall point you are making, but the context of 1 Timothy makes it clear that the "riches" that God provides are spiritual and not material.

For this assessment to be accurate it would have to be saying, "Don't put your hope in spiritual blessings which are uncertain, but to hope in God. This would be illogical.
Alternately, you would have to deduce that in mid-sentence, and with no indication, the focus shifts from material to spiritual blessings. Is there any inherent reason for this deduction, other than simply deciding that it must be the case based on what one has already decided is truth?

I maintain he does speak of monetary wealth. That is the subject that is being addressed initially here, and the thought follows through logically to the end, if you maintain that focus.

Or so it seems to me. :)
I realize there are those who reject the idea that you can be both rich and Godly. I am not one of those people. I believe that within Scripture there are indications, both overt and covert, that this is not true.
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Adam »

Sunbeam wrote:
Adam wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!
I understand the overall point you are making, but the context of 1 Timothy makes it clear that the "riches" that God provides are spiritual and not material.

For this assessment to be accurate it would have to be saying, "Don't put your hope in spiritual blessings which are uncertain, but to hope in God. This would be illogical.
Alternately, you would have to deduce that in mid-sentence, and with no indication, the focus shifts from material to spiritual blessings. Is there any inherent reason for this deduction, other than simply deciding that it must be the case based on what one has already decided is truth?

I maintain he does speak of monetary wealth. That is the subject that is being addressed initially here, and the thought follows through logically to the end, if you maintain that focus.

Or so it seems to me. :)
I realize there are those who reject the idea that you can be both rich and Godly. I am not one of those people. I believe that within Scripture there are indications, both overt and covert, that this is not true.
You are right that in the first part of the sentence, the word 'wealth' refers to monetary wealth. I understand the verse to be saying: In contrast to putting our hope in monetary wealth, we are to put our hope in God. He will then provide for us what is true wealth.

Or does God promise to lavish us with the very thing that he has told us not to put our hope in? That seems illogical and contradictory to me.

How do you understand Jesus' words in Matthew 19:24?

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
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Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Sunbeam wrote: For this assessment to be accurate it would have to be saying, "Don't put your hope in spiritual blessings which are uncertain, but to hope in God. This would be illogical.
Alternately, you would have to deduce that in mid-sentence, and with no indication, the focus shifts from material to spiritual blessings. Is there any inherent reason for this deduction, other than simply deciding that it must be the case based on what one has already decided is truth?

I maintain he does speak of monetary wealth. That is the subject that is being addressed initially here, and the thought follows through logically to the end, if you maintain that focus.

Or so it seems to me. :)
I realize there are those who reject the idea that you can be both rich and Godly. I am not one of those people. I believe that within Scripture there are indications, both overt and covert, that this is not true.
Interesting subject. Exploring it further - I have no issue with a Christian having wealth but what is the enjoyment for a Christian with riches ? Since we are to deny self it would not seem to be that our enjoyment is doing and obtaining things that make our flesh/carnal nature, happy. The source of Kingdom joy for a believer is in giving not indulging ourselves, right ?
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

Thank you for your participation in on this subject. It has helped me understand this subject a bit better and come to a place of peace.

I believe that modesty is a subjective, or relative concept, it is a word like rich, or hard. We need to be aware that this is a concept that changes not only from country to country, but also as our own culture changes, our applications may change as well.

This is not to mean that it is useless to talk about, and useless to promote modesty; it simply means that the people involved in the discussion need to have a basic and common premise to start with and to not approach the word as a static, or fixed point to be achieved. And also to be cognizant and accepting of the fact that a house or vehicle or private airplane that may have been flashy in its day, it may not be tomorrow, and that doesn’t negate the facts that it was at one time flashy and inappropriate, or that tomorrow it becomes acceptable. And this is not necessarily drifting into apostasy.
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Hats Off
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Hats Off »

And yet, so often, yesterday's wants become today's needs. Isn't there still something somewhat wrong with this?
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

Hats Off wrote:And yet, so often, yesterday's wants become today's needs. Isn't there still something somewhat wrong with this?
My answer is: It depends. I think your question is more a matter of contentment instead of modesty.

This morning a local farmer and another man (neither Mennonite) was in the office here talking about how they grew up with wood stoves for heat, and how they’d sleep in hot upstairs bedrooms with single pane windows that wouldn’t open because the house was poorly built and settled, or the windows were painted shut. They were glad for todays vinyl windows and better heating and cooling technology. I know neither one would consider these improvements to be luxury or selfcenteredness if I had them, and I don’t feel like these things would damage my pilgrim & stranger testimony, or be evidence of discontentment.

And yet, I think we should certainly be able to find contentment in our life without the latest and greatest. So if the “need” is a function of societal improvement, then I would lean toward accepting it. A rising tide lifts all boats, not only the yachts or only the canoes.
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