Modesty & Simplicity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote: Is there anything in owning these things that militate against following Jesus, for the one owning them, or for others looking on?
If we literally are to follow Jesus as He lived during His ministry years, we would not have a permanent place to lay our heads. We would be totally dependent on others. We wouldn't own much more than the clothes on our back.

I don't believe people with lots of material stuff are prevented from becoming a follower of Jesus if they don't love their stuff over loving Jesus. And as they grow spiritually, they become more aware of how they can use their stuff to benefit others and be used to further the Kingdom.

People looking on will and do make wrong judgments. If we are accused of being or doing something that is untrue we don't need to be concerned about it. Actually Jesus said if they say all manner of evil against us falsely for His name sake we can rejoice for great is our reward in heaven. We don't live our lives based on unbelievers views of what a Christian should be like unless those criticisms line up with God's word and we are convicted by the Holy Spirit regarding them. We are to point people to Christ and His perfections. Jesus said our lights are shone through our good deeds. Most people have trouble picking on good deeds.

I don't believe becoming a follower of Jesus means literally selling all you have and becoming poor yourself. But as we grow spiritually we desire to use whatever we have to further God's Kingdom.

In my experience, serious unbelievers looking on are looking for a new beginning, what God does in our hearts (love, joy, peace, loving others, etc) and not so much the kind of material things we have or our outward adornments.
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Adam »

RZehr wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying your source of unease is because of the poverty of others on the earth? And if everyone on earth had a castle and Lamborghini and all the blessings you enjoy, then it would be a nonissue?
If everyone on earth had a castle, it would not longer be a castle but simply a house. If everyone on earth had a Lamborghini, it would no longer be a Lamborghini but simply a car. In other words, those two items would lose the prideful attachments associated with owing them because everyone would own them. But these are all theoretical scenarios that will never exist.

The words Lamborghini, mansion, and castle all imply extravagant wealth. So, by virtue of the fact that you are choosing those words, you are really asking people, "Is it okay for Christians to spend their money on extravagant items that show how wealthy they are?" The discussion would be a lot different if you asked, "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a large house in order to provide a place for those who are down and out to sleep and find salvation in Christ?" OR "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a fast car to help transport the sick who live in remote locations more quickly to the hospital?"

I have a very practical question: Is it okay that I, as a missionary, have built a simple, western style house that has solar power and a water tank, in the midst of a village were people live in thatch-roofed huts and have no running water or electricity, so that I can translate the Bible into their language or be a witness for Christ? Does the fact that my house is much nicer and more expensive than the local inhabitants (but probably not as big or nice as many of the houses of the people reading this), detract from my witness to the gospel? In their minds I have a mansion and drive a Lamborghini (although my house is less than 1,000 square feet and I drive a 1989 Toyota Hilux). If I we were to live in a thatched-roof hut, I don't think we would last long in this country, because we are not used to living that way and don't really have the skills to do it.

Many Christians in America and Canada are living in mansions and driving Lamborghinis already, even those who are living simply and modestly, they just don't realize it.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Adam wrote: If everyone on earth had a castle, it would not longer be a castle but simply a house. If everyone on earth had a Lamborghini, it would no longer be a Lamborghini but simply a car. In other words, those two items would lose the prideful attachments associated with owing them because everyone would own them. But these are all theoretical scenarios that will never exist.

The words Lamborghini, mansion, and castle all imply extravagant wealth. So, by virtue of the fact that you are choosing those words, you are really asking people, "Is it okay for Christians to spend their money on extravagant items that show how wealthy they are?" The discussion would be a lot different if you asked, "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a large house in order to provide a place for those who are down and out to sleep and find salvation in Christ?" OR "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a fast car to help transport the sick who live in remote locations more quickly to the hospital?"

I have a very practical question: Is it okay that I, as a missionary, have built a simple, western style house that has solar power and a water tank, in the midst of a village were people live in thatch-roofed huts and have no running water or electricity, so that I can translate the Bible into their language or be a witness for Christ? Does the fact that my house is much nicer and more expensive than the local inhabitants (but probably not as big or nice as many of the houses of the people reading this), detract from my witness to the gospel? In their minds I have a mansion and drive a Lamborghini (although my house is less than 1,000 square feet and I drive a 1989 Toyota Hilux). If I we were to live in a thatched-roof hut, I don't think we would last long in this country, because we are not used to living that way and don't really have the skills to do it.

Many Christians in America and Canada are living in mansions and driving Lamborghinis already, even those who are living simply and modestly, they just don't realize it.
This is a cultural issue. In the North American context, I am not sure if the items owned are the problem but the reason for owning it. Are we being good stewards of the Lord's blessings?
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Adam »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:This is a cultural issue. In the North American context, I am not sure if the items owned are the problem but the reason for owning it. Are we being good stewards of the Lord's blessings?
Yes, I think the reason for owning something is very important. We built a western style house because we were honest with ourselves and knew that we couldn't hack it in a bush house (even though, in an ideal world, we would love to live at a level commensurate with the local population). We didn't build a western style house so that we could demonstrate how wealthy we are (relatively), but rather so that we could do the work of the Lord here long-term. It is certainly strange though to go from being not at all wealthy in America, to being very wealthy here in Papua New Guinea. And what is considered to be a modest and simple lifestyle in North America is considered a wealthy and luxurious lifestyle here in Papua New Guinea.
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Ernie
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Ernie »

Adam wrote:
RZehr wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying your source of unease is because of the poverty of others on the earth? And if everyone on earth had a castle and Lamborghini and all the blessings you enjoy, then it would be a nonissue?
If everyone on earth had a castle, it would not longer be a castle but simply a house. If everyone on earth had a Lamborghini, it would no longer be a Lamborghini but simply a car. In other words, those two items would lose the prideful attachments associated with owing them because everyone would own them. But these are all theoretical scenarios that will never exist.

The words Lamborghini, mansion, and castle all imply extravagant wealth. So, by virtue of the fact that you are choosing those words, you are really asking people, "Is it okay for Christians to spend their money on extravagant items that show how wealthy they are?" The discussion would be a lot different if you asked, "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a large house in order to provide a place for those who are down and out to sleep and find salvation in Christ?" OR "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a fast car to help transport the sick who live in remote locations more quickly to the hospital?"
Thanks for putting this into words for me.
Adam wrote: I have a very practical question: Is it okay that I, as a missionary, have built a simple, western style house that has solar power and a water tank, in the midst of a village were people live in thatch-roofed huts and have no running water or electricity, so that I can translate the Bible into their language or be a witness for Christ? Does the fact that my house is much nicer and more expensive than the local inhabitants (but probably not as big or nice as many of the houses of the people reading this), detract from my witness to the gospel? In their minds I have a mansion and drive a Lamborghini (although my house is less than 1,000 square feet and I drive a 1989 Toyota Hilux). If I we were to live in a thatched-roof hut, I don't think we would last long in this country, because we are not used to living that way and don't really have the skills to do it.
I think there will be a trade off.
Learning the skills takes time and adjusting to the culture takes time and it could feel like a deterrent to getting the Bible translated in a timely manner. However as it is, unless you make your comforts available to the natives, I think you will need to spend significant time trying to convince or explain why you can or should live differently then them.
This is just my perspective as a spectator. I have no particular knowledge or experience in your world.
Adam wrote: Many Christians in America and Canada are living in mansions and driving Lamborghinis already, even those who are living simply and modestly, they just don't realize it.
As compared to where you are presently?
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Josh
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Josh »

The church of God in Christ, Mennonite has a position against acquiring and displaying things that are "highly esteemed" by the world, other than things esteemed for godliness.

So, for example, 4x4 trucks were highly esteemed and expensive a few decades ago and members were not permitted to have one. Nowadays they are common and are permitted.

Likewise when Dockers khakis first came out they were "highly esteemed" and fashionable. Nowadays nobody thinks they are, so even church leaders will wear Dockers they got at a thrift store.

Same goes for size of houses.
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

Adam wrote:
RZehr wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying your source of unease is because of the poverty of others on the earth? And if everyone on earth had a castle and Lamborghini and all the blessings you enjoy, then it would be a nonissue?
If everyone on earth had a castle, it would not longer be a castle but simply a house. If everyone on earth had a Lamborghini, it would no longer be a Lamborghini but simply a car. In other words, those two items would lose the prideful attachments associated with owing them because everyone would own them. But these are all theoretical scenarios that will never exist.
Yes.
Adam wrote: The words Lamborghini, mansion, and castle all imply extravagant wealth. So, by virtue of the fact that you are choosing those words, you are really asking people, "Is it okay for Christians to spend their money on extravagant items that show how wealthy they are?" The discussion would be a lot different if you asked, "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a large house in order to provide a place for those who are down and out to sleep and find salvation in Christ?" OR "Is it okay for a Christian to buy a fast car to help transport the sick who live in remote locations more quickly to the hospital?"
True. I'm asking if you are okay with living far more luxuriously, and extravagantly than your neighbors. I'm not asking if it is okay to buy a large house in order to open it up to the homeless.
Adam wrote: I have a very practical question: Is it okay that I, as a missionary, have built a simple, western style house that has solar power and a water tank, in the midst of a village were people live in thatch-roofed huts and have no running water or electricity, so that I can translate the Bible into their language or be a witness for Christ? Does the fact that my house is much nicer and more expensive than the local inhabitants (but probably not as big or nice as many of the houses of the people reading this), detract from my witness to the gospel? In their minds I have a mansion and drive a Lamborghini (although my house is less than 1,000 square feet and I drive a 1989 Toyota Hilux). If I we were to live in a thatched-roof hut, I don't think we would last long in this country, because we are not used to living that way and don't really have the skills to do it.
I didn't have foreign missionaries in mind when I wrote this. We Americans seems to by and large accept it as fact that our missionaries are only able to downgrade to a certain point. Maybe that it alright. Maybe it isn't best.
If the poor people around you know that you are sacrificing for them, does that matter?
Last week, we had a customer here from Bulgaria, maybe the wealthiest person I've ever met. His family owns ports, and farms 1,500,000 acres of prime corn/wheat/peas farmland. When this man orders the most expensive meal at lunch time ($30) I don't think he is being extravagant, because I (as the poor man looking on) know for him this is not fancy, it is like myself ordering a $0.30 item.

Maybe the poor people there may be a bit of the same understanding about yourself. I really don't know.

Adam wrote: Many Christians in America and Canada are living in mansions and driving Lamborghinis already, even those who are living simply and modestly, they just don't realize it.
In global comparison, yes. While global comparison is helpful for some things such as gratefulness and generosity, I don't think it is applicable for this conversation. I'd like to keep this in the North American context, since that is where most of us are.
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GaryK
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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Adam wrote: I have a very practical question: Is it okay that I, as a missionary, have built a simple, western style house that has solar power and a water tank, in the midst of a village were people live in thatch-roofed huts and have no running water or electricity, so that I can translate the Bible into their language or be a witness for Christ? Does the fact that my house is much nicer and more expensive than the local inhabitants (but probably not as big or nice as many of the houses of the people reading this), detract from my witness to the gospel? In their minds I have a mansion and drive a Lamborghini (although my house is less than 1,000 square feet and I drive a 1989 Toyota Hilux). If I we were to live in a thatched-roof hut, I don't think we would last long in this country, because we are not used to living that way and don't really have the skills to do it.
We spent 4 years (2004-2008) in Liberia, Africa in a church planting endeavor that began in 2001. We lived at a much higher standard of living than the majority of Liberians. I discovered that they did not expect us to live like they did. We tried to make it abundantly clear what our purpose was in being there, which was to establish autonomous Kingdom churches in Liberia and that we were actively engaged in "working ourselves out of a job". We made it clear that we recognized the cultural and standard of living differences between us and that we weren't there to try to bridge the differences. They seemed to respect our openness about these things and were very receptive to the goals we had. Today there are two autonomous churches with Liberian pastors leading the way.

Edited to add: I sent this before I saw RZehr's post.
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Josh
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Josh »

My church group has autonomous churches in places like a Central American Mayan villages. One in particular requested a schoolteacher be sent so they could start teaching their children how to read.

They built a nice house for her - as nice and bigger than anyone else's - and also constructed a homemade shower. They assumed she would not want to bathe in the river like they do. For them, it doesn't make sense to expect us to live like they do and vice versa.

They have the same issues with greed, pride, and jealousy as we do in North America and their brotherhood tries to deal with those things too.
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

JimFoxvog wrote:There are a lot of homeless people. A big mansion would give lots of rooms to be able to share with those who need a space inside and an address.
If you could easily afford it, and it was under priced, why not just live in it yourself? And support the local homeless shelter financially, since/if they are better equipped to help?
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