Modesty & Simplicity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
Definitely. I think living simply is important. I just think it's also important to realize that we can become eye-servants in living simply, and if the happens, much of the spiritual value is lost.

But that's a danger for most spiritually valuable things. For instance ...
If I speak human or angelic languages
but do not have love,
I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy
and understand all mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountains
but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boast
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Doesn't mean that having faith, donating to the poor, or understanding are unimportant. But we can easily delude ourselves.
Yes, unless motivated by love in our actions, as scripture says we gain nothing. I think pride can easily be the driver in our humbleness, godliness, modesty, simple living, giving, praying, separation, etc. 'God, I'm thankful that I am not like one of these non-Anabaptists'. (non-Evangelicals or non-Charismatics or certain kinds of Anabaptists, etc). Jesus spoke of losing eternal reward when we do things for show.

Whoops other posts to read. O well, I'll post this first.
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Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Sunbeam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
I will buck the trend here and say I don't think it is a good thing. :wave:
Not to scold you! I expect your guilty feelings come from long conditioning that money is inherently evil and having it and buying stuff for yourself is somehow an extension of that evil...sometimes a necessary evil, but...


But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!

How would you feel as an earthly parent if you gave your daughter some cotton candy, and the whole time she ate it, she felt guilty inside for eating it and enjoying it? Now if her little brother came along and she pulled off a nice hunk and gave him some, that would make you feel good, and her too! But if she gave it to him just because she felt guilty for eating it herself, it would probably frustrate you as a parent. And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too! If she hoarded it and refused to share that would also be frustrating. You would want your daughter to feel the happiness a big swirl of cotton candy can bring, and to thank you for it with gladness!
Just like we find enjoyment in giving good gifts to our children, God enjoys giving good things to us. Money is one of those things sometimes! Use it! Enjoy it! Freely share it with the people who come into your path, not out of guilt for having it...just out of the sheer joy of sharing!! Recognize it as a gift from God. Thank Him for it, but shed the guilt!

ETA. Having said that, I do not think I would buy a luxury car for myself. It may be possible for that the be the wisest choice for someone? I can't really envision a scenario where that would be the case, but I think it is possible a person may come into possession of such an item where it would not be inappropriate for them to keep it, if that makes sense.
I'm not dropping the guilt too fast but keep working on it. :)

To the daughter story. You said "And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too!" I agree she shouldn't give out of obligation but scripture says it is more of a blessing to give than to receive and then it would not be frustrating to see the daughter being so blessed (spiritual blessing) in giving it all away ? Doesn't the scripture indicate that to have life one must lost it ? Isn't it a great opportunity to be spiritually blessed when you have much to give to others ? I think the joy in giving far outweighs the temporary happiness that material things bring, yes/no ?

So, I agree I shouldn't feel guilty but realize that joy and spiritual blessings are in giving and not keeping for myself.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sunbeam »

Sudsy wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
I will buck the trend here and say I don't think it is a good thing. :wave:
Not to scold you! I expect your guilty feelings come from long conditioning that money is inherently evil and having it and buying stuff for yourself is somehow an extension of that evil...sometimes a necessary evil, but...


But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!

How would you feel as an earthly parent if you gave your daughter some cotton candy, and the whole time she ate it, she felt guilty inside for eating it and enjoying it? Now if her little brother came along and she pulled off a nice hunk and gave him some, that would make you feel good, and her too! But if she gave it to him just because she felt guilty for eating it herself, it would probably frustrate you as a parent. And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too! If she hoarded it and refused to share that would also be frustrating. You would want your daughter to feel the happiness a big swirl of cotton candy can bring, and to thank you for it with gladness!
Just like we find enjoyment in giving good gifts to our children, God enjoys giving good things to us. Money is one of those things sometimes! Use it! Enjoy it! Freely share it with the people who come into your path, not out of guilt for having it...just out of the sheer joy of sharing!! Recognize it as a gift from God. Thank Him for it, but shed the guilt!

ETA. Having said that, I do not think I would buy a luxury car for myself. It may be possible for that the be the wisest choice for someone? I can't really envision a scenario where that would be the case, but I think it is possible a person may come into possession of such an item where it would not be inappropriate for them to keep it, if that makes sense.
I'm not dropping the guilt too fast but keep working on it. :)

To the daughter story. You said "And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too!" I agree she shouldn't give out of obligation but scripture says it is more of a blessing to give than to receive and then it would not be frustrating to see the daughter being so blessed (spiritual blessing) in giving it all away ? Doesn't the scripture indicate that to have life one must lost it ? Isn't it a great opportunity to be spiritually blessed when you have much to give to others ? I think the joy in giving far outweighs the temporary happiness that material things bring, yes/no ?

So, I agree I shouldn't feel guilty but realize that joy and spiritual blessings are in giving and not keeping for myself.
:up: Alrighty then! Embrace the guilt!
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

Sunbeam wrote: I will buck the trend here and say I don't think it is a good thing. :wave:
Not to scold you! I expect your guilty feelings come from long conditioning that money is inherently evil and having it and buying stuff for yourself is somehow an extension of that evil...sometimes a necessary evil, but...


But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!

How would you feel as an earthly parent if you gave your daughter some cotton candy, and the whole time she ate it, she felt guilty inside for eating it and enjoying it? Now if her little brother came along and she pulled off a nice hunk and gave him some, that would make you feel good, and her too! But if she gave it to him just because she felt guilty for eating it herself, it would probably frustrate you as a parent. And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too! If she hoarded it and refused to share that would also be frustrating. You would want your daughter to feel the happiness a big swirl of cotton candy can bring, and to thank you for it with gladness!
Just like we find enjoyment in giving good gifts to our children, God enjoys giving good things to us. Money is one of those things sometimes! Use it! Enjoy it! Freely share it with the people who come into your path, not out of guilt for having it...just out of the sheer joy of sharing!! Recognize it as a gift from God. Thank Him for it, but shed the guilt!

ETA. Having said that, I do not think I would buy a luxury car for myself. It may be possible for that the be the wisest choice for someone? I can't really envision a scenario where that would be the case, but I think it is possible a person may come into possession of such an item where it would not be inappropriate for them to keep it, if that makes sense.
I agree that we are should enjoy a certain level of good things without feeling guilty. And I suppose I'm not the first or last Mennonite to struggle with this. But I've found the parent/child - God/us description helpful for myself in the past as well.

My difficulty is that things are not just handed to us like a father hands candy to his child. God doesn't lower a Lamborghini from the clouds and drop the key and title into my shirt pocket. We are blessed with a stable economy, good health, good opportunity, etc., etc., and along with that we are given some instructions and an example on what our priorities ought to be.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sunbeam »

Right! But if you notice, Sudsy said he was feeling uneasy for buying clothes that fit him after losing 40 lbs. That is a far cry from a Lamborghini. He then suggested he was right to feel this way.
Somehow, is there not a balance between simply finding joy in the gifts God gave us, even if they are not technically "needs", and being indiscriminately wasteful with our money?

I would not buy myself a Lamborghini. But neither would I buy one for the homeless person on the street.
I might however buy nice living room furniture for myself. I would happily purchase the same for refugees needing to furnish their home, even though technically we could all sit on the floor. They do in some countries, after all, and it would be more economical.

I don't know...maybe I am not doing well at communicating here. Or perhaps I am and we simply disagree. That is okay, too. :)
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Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Sunbeam wrote: :up: Alrighty then! Embrace the guilt!
No, thankyou. But I will try to think more of the opportunity I have been given to be spiritually blessed over materially blessed. Perhaps the way to ease any sense of guilt is to experience more the joy of giving.

I didn't mean to convey buying new clothes made me feel guilty. That was my mistake. It was just the idea that my buying (which was a considerable sum) was for myself. I'm over it now and enthused about giving more after thinking through this more.
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

Sunbeam, I understood, and didn't intend to sound contradictory with my last post. And I actually believe and agree with your last post and examples.
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Josh
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Josh »

Here is what is not a blessing:

- Building bigger barns to store your stuff when you may very well pass away in your sleep then next evening

- Obeying all the commandments of God, but being unwilling to sell all you have, give to the poor, and follow Jesus when he invites you to come follow him

- Being so attached to farms, businesses, and other possessions and social status that you are unable to flee from persecution coming on the horizon

- Finding one's security in wealth and the subsequent fear of losing it all and wondering how you will survive - not realising your Heavenly Father will take care of your needs before you even ask him

- Being so busy working, raising a good appearing family, saving money, being "responsible" there is no time to share the good news with seekers, or stay up late talking to a needy person, or to organise a regular Bible study
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Adam »

Sunbeam wrote:But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!
I understand the overall point you are making, but the context of 1 Timothy makes it clear that the "riches" that God provides are spiritual and not material. Rather than seeking material riches, we are to be content with "food and clothing" (i.e. the necessities of life). Material riches are deceiving, but when we have spiritual riches from God, we are able to live a life of joy. Furthermore, we should enjoy the spiritual blessings that God gives us. Consequently, I do not believe this verse is saying that money is a rich gift from God to be enjoyed.

I think most of the New Testament witness points to the fact that material riches are extremely dangerous for us spiritually. That is why it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God. Are there some rich people who have found there way through the eye of the needle? Perhaps, but it is a very dangerous journey spiritually speaking.

Does that mean that somebody should feel guilty for buying new clothes because the old ones don't fit anymore. I don't think so. Clothes are one of the necessities that Paul mentions. But we should be wary of an inner "willingness to share our riches" that results in us keeping a large portion of our riches to ourselves when people are starving to death around the world.
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Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Adam wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!
I understand the overall point you are making, but the context of 1 Timothy makes it clear that the "riches" that God provides are spiritual and not material. Rather than seeking material riches, we are to be content with "food and clothing" (i.e. the necessities of life). Material riches are deceiving, but when we have spiritual riches from God, we are able to live a life of joy. Furthermore, we should enjoy the spiritual blessings that God gives us. Consequently, I do not believe this verse is saying that money is a rich gift from God to be enjoyed.

I think most of the New Testament witness points to the fact that material riches are extremely dangerous for us spiritually. That is why it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God. Are there some rich people who have found there way through the eye of the needle? Perhaps, but it is a very dangerous journey spiritually speaking.

Does that mean that somebody should feel guilty for buying new clothes because the old ones don't fit anymore. I don't think so. Clothes are one of the necessities that Paul mentions. But we should be wary of an inner "willingness to share our riches" that results in us keeping a large portion of our riches to ourselves when people are starving to death around the world.
Amen ! Abundant living is a life of spiritual riches. This reminds me of what was said of the Laodicean church -

"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. " Revelation 3:16-20

We have some very wealthy Anabaptists in our city (millionaires) as most Mennonites come from a hard work background and are materially quite successful. Yet to talk to them about spiritual things over material things is a real challenge. But this occurs too with us middle class and even less wealthy when we become satisfied with the comforts of materialism. The answer is not the prosperity gospel (which is resulting in a Laodicean type church, imo) but rather to pursue a Kingdom way of life described as "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" - Romans 14:17
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