Modesty & Simplicity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Josh »

Adam wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote:It does clarify your position. However, this is subjective. Some people would still have a problem with the Land Cruiser and suggest you find something more to their liking. These are extreme examples though.
If they have a problem with it, tell them to come to Papua New Guinea and try driving to a remote village in a two-wheel drive economy car, and I bet they would change their mind!
I suspect these are the same kind of people who would say Christians should not wear "flesh coloured stockings", but instead wear black coloured stockings, and then rejoice when someone who happens to have dark skin joins their church and starts wearing black coloured stockings.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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I have read only a fraction of this thread, but here is my thinking...
There are a number of wealthy/influential people mentioned in the Bible who we are told loved and worshiped Jesus. I do not think the two things are automatically opposed to one another. People in that position will always be using their resources in ways that bless and serve others, the same as poor people will be doing if they love Jesus.

Just one example:
When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the Body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." Matthew 27:57-60

Are there temptations inherent in being a wealthy person? Without question. Are there any temptations that cannot be overcome with the aid of the Spirit? No.

There are also temptations inherent to poverty.

I maintain we should be able to say with the Apostle Paul these words that he spoke in regards to possessions, (the last sentence here is perhaps the most misused Bible verse in the entire body of Scripture.)
I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
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Hats Off
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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It is not about money - it is all about what we do with it! Thanks, Sunbeam for another good post!
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Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sunbeam »

Well, isn't it more about where our heart is?
That will definitely affect our use of money, yes, but I think we can do all the right things with our money no matter how much we have or don't have, to say, calm our conscience, or gain the approval of our peers, or brothers and sisters, and completely miss the mark.
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Hats Off
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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So it has more to with with why we do what we do. Certainly doing all the right things is good but not sufficient. Even the Pharisees did right things.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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Sunbeam wrote:Well, isn't it more about where our heart is?
That will definitely affect our use of money, yes, but I think we can do all the right things with our money no matter how much we have or don't have, to say, calm our conscience, or gain the approval of our peers, or brothers and sisters, and completely miss the mark.
Very well put.

If my brothers and sisters are more impressed with, say, Greek or knowledge of Mennonite history than a black Mustang convertible, I can impress them with whatever works, being just as prideful as someone else with a black Mustang convertible. And I can feel oh-so-smug about it.

But God sees the heart.
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Sudsy
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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Sudsy wrote:Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
Definitely. I think living simply is important. I just think it's also important to realize that we can become eye-servants in living simply, and if the happens, much of the spiritual value is lost.

But that's a danger for most spiritually valuable things. For instance ...
If I speak human or angelic languages
but do not have love,
I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy
and understand all mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountains
but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boast
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Doesn't mean that having faith, donating to the poor, or understanding are unimportant. But we can easily delude ourselves.
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RZehr
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by RZehr »

I agree & appreciate with most of what is being said.

And I'll clarify that the question at hand is not whether it is okay to make a lot of money.
Nor is it a question whether we live better or worse than people in other countries.

I have a friend that recently moved his daughter and son and wife from his native Guatemala to Oregon. In Guatemala he lived with dirt floors. Here he lives in a very simple, old duplex with a tiny yard. He does not consider his house a mansion even after living in what we'd call poverty.
So did he simply become accustom to a higher standard, and now his home isn't a mansion? I don't think so. I think he is answering the question relative to the culture his is now in.


My question is more a question of whether you are comfortable living at, or appearing to live at a much higher standard than your neighbors, and if not, why not? Is it something besides stewardship? I think most of us raise our living standard when our host societies standard of living is raised. None of us in the U.S. are still in the stone age.

If it is because you value modesty and simplicity and humility and contentment, what is your reasons for that? I believe Ernie touched on it. I think that these virtues are infused thru out the NT in their examples and descriptions.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sunbeam »

Sudsy wrote:Interesting arguments but I still would and do have 'qualms' or perhaps a better way to say this, I still am disappointed in where my heart is when I compare how I live to the needs of those I can help. I just went out today and bought some summer clothes as I lost some 40 pounds over the last year. And although I think I chose modestly, I am still somewhat uneasy about my spending on self. Isn't that a good thing ?
I will buck the trend here and say I don't think it is a good thing. :wave:
Not to scold you! I expect your guilty feelings come from long conditioning that money is inherently evil and having it and buying stuff for yourself is somehow an extension of that evil...sometimes a necessary evil, but...


But let us look at this verse from 1 Timothy.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

This does not suggest at all that there is anything at all wrong with wealth, but that we must be alert to the temptations that come with it..the inclination to feel smug because we have it, and the tendency to place our trust in it. Our trust must be placed in God, and we must view money for what it is...a rich gift from God to be enjoyed!

How would you feel as an earthly parent if you gave your daughter some cotton candy, and the whole time she ate it, she felt guilty inside for eating it and enjoying it? Now if her little brother came along and she pulled off a nice hunk and gave him some, that would make you feel good, and her too! But if she gave it to him just because she felt guilty for eating it herself, it would probably frustrate you as a parent. And if she felt obligated to go out and give it virtually all away because she felt like she shouldn't really be indulging herself, that would be frustrating too! If she hoarded it and refused to share that would also be frustrating. You would want your daughter to feel the happiness a big swirl of cotton candy can bring, and to thank you for it with gladness!
Just like we find enjoyment in giving good gifts to our children, God enjoys giving good things to us. Money is one of those things sometimes! Use it! Enjoy it! Freely share it with the people who come into your path, not out of guilt for having it...just out of the sheer joy of sharing!! Recognize it as a gift from God. Thank Him for it, but shed the guilt!

ETA. Having said that, I do not think I would buy a luxury car for myself. It may be possible for that the be the wisest choice for someone? I can't really envision a scenario where that would be the case, but I think it is possible a person may come into possession of such an item where it would not be inappropriate for them to keep it, if that makes sense.
Last edited by Sunbeam on Thu May 04, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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