I get uneasy at times when big deals are made over styles of headcoverings, especially among different generations. That is something I don't miss.
From what I have observed, it is often more about self-identity and control than anything specifically Biblical. Church leaders and other people like to be able to spot and identify what group a woman belongs to based on her dress and covering. So they know if she is someone who bears watching or not. Funny how it is mostly the women. When each church group has a distinctly different costume and covering style then everyone (or everyone who matters) knows exactly who they are and what group they belong to, even from a distance. That would not be the case if women were just expected to generally dress modestly and wear any kind of head covering from a hat or headscarf to a transparent doily. There is nothing Biblical about specific detailed dress codes, only general instructions to dress modestly.
You can't gossip and be scandalized by the girls from your denomination that you saw out at 11 pm on a Friday night if you can't tell by their dress or covering style that they are actually from your denomination and not just some random girls. And if there is anything that the older folks like doing it is keeping track of the younger folks. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But I think it explains a lot. I can drive around "mennoland" with one of my aunts or cousins who lives there and they can tell at a glance from 100 yards what group a particular girl or woman belongs to and possibly what church she attends if she is wearing any kind of CA dress. I think that is the way people want it.
Last edited by Ken on Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pmFunny how it is mostly the women.
Again, this is only in the transitional groups which represent a small minority of Plain Anabaptists.
The large majority of Plain Anabaptists have distinct attire for the men also that identifies their particular flavor.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm
From what I have observed, it is often more about self-identity and control than anything specifically Biblical. Church leaders and other people like to be able to spot and identify what group a woman belongs to based on her dress and covering. So they know if she is someone who bears watching or not. Funny how it is mostly the women. When each church group has a distinctly different costume and covering style then everyone (or everyone who matters) knows exactly who they are and what group they belong to, even from a distance.
And if there is anything that the older folks like doing it is keeping track of the younger folks. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But I think it explains a lot. I think that is the way people want it.
I call this tribal culture.
I see the same thing among Penn State students and faculty. 97% of the world's population likes to hang out with and be identified with a tribe - a group of people who think like themselves. Only 3% enjoy multi-cultural interactions.
I can't find the article where I read these percentages. If you can find it, please let me know.
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm
From what I have observed, it is often more about self-identity and control than anything specifically Biblical. Church leaders and other people like to be able to spot and identify what group a woman belongs to based on her dress and covering. So they know if she is someone who bears watching or not. Funny how it is mostly the women. When each church group has a distinctly different costume and covering style then everyone (or everyone who matters) knows exactly who they are and what group they belong to, even from a distance.
And if there is anything that the older folks like doing it is keeping track of the younger folks. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But I think it explains a lot. I think that is the way people want it.
I call this tribal culture.
I see the same thing among Penn State students and faculty. 97% of the world's population likes to hang out with and be identified with a tribe - a group of people who think like themselves. Only 3% enjoy multi-cultural interactions.
I can't find the article where I read these percentages. If you can find it, please let me know.
Yes of course. A large portion of Menno customs are more cultural than Biblical. Same with every other subculture. The mistake some people make is in not recognizing that. And I think it is easier for leaders to slip into mode of "we do this because God commands it" rather than "we do this because this is who we are"
1 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
I get uneasy at times when big deals are made over styles of headcoverings, especially among different generations. That is something I don't miss.
From what I have observed, it is often more about self-identity and control than anything specifically Biblical. Church leaders and other people like to be able to spot and identify what group a woman belongs to based on her dress and covering. So they know if she is someone who bears watching or not. Funny how it is mostly the women. When each church group has a distinctly different costume and covering style then everyone (or everyone who matters) knows exactly who they are and what group they belong to, even from a distance. That would not be the case if women were just expected to generally dress modestly and wear any kind of head covering from a hat or headscarf to a transparent doily. There is nothing Biblical about specific detailed dress codes, only general instructions to dress modestly.
You can't gossip and be scandalized by the girls from your denomination that you saw out at 11 pm on a Friday night if you can't tell by their dress or covering style that they are actually from your denomination and not just some random girls. And if there is anything that the older folks like doing it is keeping track of the younger folks. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But I think it explains a lot. I can drive around "mennoland" with one of my aunts or cousins who lives there and they can tell at a glance from 100 yards what group a particular girl or woman belongs to and possibly what church she attends if she is wearing any kind of CA dress. I think that is the way people want it.
Did somebody tell you this this is the reason for the distinct styles, or did you make this up out of whole cloth?
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:08 pm
Yes of course. A large portion of Menno customs are more cultural than Biblical. Same with every other subculture. The mistake some people make is in not recognizing that. And I think it is easier for leaders to slip into mode of "we do this because God commands it" rather than "we do this because this is who we are"
I don't know that Mennos say their customs are scriptural but rather applications of scriptural principles.
In addition, "obey them that have the rule over you," presumably gives the church/church leaders the authority to establish practices that they believe will result in spiritual blessing for their church.
I agree that churches/leaders can sometimes take themselves too seriously in this regard but I don't know that I disagree with the basic premise.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ken and Ernie both have good points. From what I understand, the cape dress was originally designed for nursing mothers. The conservatives adopted it as a standard, as it was easy to police. It was convenient for leadership to dictate: this is the dress pattern you will use.
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I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:39 am
Ken and Ernie both have good points. From what I understand, the cape dress was originally designed for nursing mothers. The conservatives adopted it as a standard, as it was easy to police. It was convenient for leadership to dictate: this is the dress pattern you will use.
I beg to differ somewhat on the cape dress. I think it was to hide the shape of the woman's body. Many of the older women in the old order Mennonites, such as the Groffdale Conference, also wear an extra layer of fabric over the front of their skirts. It is called an apron and the purpose is modesty.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:39 am
Ken and Ernie both have good points. From what I understand, the cape dress was originally designed for nursing mothers. The conservatives adopted it as a standard, as it was easy to police. It was convenient for leadership to dictate: this is the dress pattern you will use.
I beg to differ somewhat on the cape dress. I think it was to hide the shape of the woman's body. Many of the older women in the old order Mennonites, such as the Groffdale Conference, also wear an extra layer of fabric over the front of their skirts. It is called an apron and the purpose is modesty.
... and that which is of special value is protected, hidden.
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:39 am
Ken and Ernie both have good points. From what I understand, the cape dress was originally designed for nursing mothers. The conservatives adopted it as a standard, as it was easy to police. It was convenient for leadership to dictate: this is the dress pattern you will use.
I beg to differ somewhat on the cape dress. I think it was to hide the shape of the woman's body. Many of the older women in the old order Mennonites, such as the Groffdale Conference, also wear an extra layer of fabric over the front of their skirts. It is called an apron and the purpose is modesty.
It could be that the pattern was designed for nursing mothers, but adopted by conservatives for its modesty. Grace and I could both be right and not know it
1 x
I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.
