Whose wife shall she be?

[RZehr]

Question only for current members at a plain, conservative Mennonite church. If you are not currently a member at a Mennonite church that requires women to wear a covering, please don’t post for a week.

Scenario:
Mary and Michael marry. First marriage for both.
They have two children. Unfortunately they both have multiple affairs, and eventually they divorce.
Michael gets married to a divorcee, Susie, they have no children.
Mary gets married to John. This is John’s first marriage. They have no children.
Mary and John get divorced. John does not remarry.
Mary gets married to a divorcee, Henry. This is both Henry’s and Mary’s third marriage. They have no children. Henry’s prior spouses may or may not be married or living.

Few decades pass. Now, Susie dies. Then Michael dies.

How does or doesn’t Micheals death affect the current married status of Mary? Could Micheals death mean that Mary and Henry’s marriage is right? Does her marriage to John matter at all?

*Names have been changed to protect both the innocent and the guilty.

[Sliceitup]

I’m assuming you’re asking how the church should/would view this? I would assume that if she would be considered to be rightfully married to anyone at this point it would be John. Although the case could be made that she’s not married at all, because both of those marriages would be considered null.

I guess the biggest question in my mind is why there needs to be a definitive answer? In both of the views above, her current third marriage would still be invalid. So it wouldn’t change anything in regard to that aspect.

Does this need to be decided so that people know which husband to record as hers in the official church directory? Or is it a case of wanting to know how to treat the couple, and whether to acknowledge the third husband’s existence?

If this is about a directory type of thing then I vote no legitimate husband. If this is about how to treat the marriage in social situations then I’m not sure. Personally I treat remarried spouses as legit when it comes to social events.

[ken_sylvania]

As I understand Jesus' teaching...
this continues to be an adulterous marriage relationship.
Some folks say that God only recognizes a person's first "legitimate" marriage. I see no reason to believe that this is the case. When Jesus discusses divorce and remarriage, he talks about a divorcee "being married to another man" and about someone "marrying her that is divorced" as though these people are then truly married, even though it is a sinful marriage.

As long as either Michael or John is still living, Mary's marriage to Henry continues to be ongoing adultery.

[RZehr]

Mary now wants to join your church, and is looking to your church for spiritual truth and direction about her marital condition. And your church doesn’t accept divorce and remarriage.

[GaryK]

As I understand Jesus' teaching...
this continues to be an adulterous marriage relationship.
Some folks say that God only recognizes a person's first "legitimate" marriage. I see no reason to believe that this is the case. When Jesus discusses divorce and remarriage, he talks about a divorcee "being married to another man" and about someone "marrying her that is divorced" as though these people are then truly married, even though it is a sinful marriage.

As long as either Michael or John is still living, Mary's marriage to Henry continues to be ongoing adultery.

Jesus also uses the word divorce. Does this mean that divorcees are truly divorced in Jesus' view? If Jesus views divorced people as truly not married, how can a divorcee getting married to a single person be considered adultery? The sin of adultery is the act of having an affair with someone who is not one's spouse, which also assumes a God joined marriage still exists.

Both divorce and remarriage are human ideas. Jesus takes it back to God's design, before any such thing as divorce and remarriage was invented. This is the premise I always start from when working through issues like this, and, IMO, comes the closest to being able to give a clear answer to any situation that arises. I call it the "in the beginning model". Jesus used both of these human ideas and the words used to describe these ideas to make a clear distinction between the human view and the God view.

This view would conclude that Mary can't remain married to Henry, if Henry had at any point been rightly married according to the "in the beginning model". It would also conclude that Mary and John were never joined together by God. Theoretically, both John and Mary are free to marry someone who has never been married before. Whether it's advisable or not is another matter that requires much discernment.

[Sliceitup]

Mary now wants to join your church, and is looking to your church for spiritual truth and direction about her marital condition. And your church doesn’t accept divorce and remarriage.

I suggest Mary find a church that is more willing to accept her experience. Very few churches with the characteristics you mentioned in the first post would accept her if she continues in her marriage with Henry. Or whoever the third guy was.

Personally I think any church who would require her to separate from her third husband should cease doing outreach to people who didn’t grow up within the conservative cultures. I can’t see much good in requiring what is effectively a divorce because someone was divorced previously. Peoples lives are messy, and if we want to do anything outreach we have to be willing to understand that sometimes our ideas of righteousness might cause a lot more messiness. For example, it was mentioned that her and her third husband don’t have children, but if they did have young children, and a church would insist the couple separate due to previous divorce and still living ex-spouse, then I would find that to be very questionable, and harmful to the children.

But as I said, the second paragraph is purely my opinion, and most conservative churches don’t have much, if any, wiggle room on divorce and remarriage, even if it happened pre-conversion.

[RZehr]

What if we found out that all of Henrys former spouses have passed away? And then does Johns marriage "matter" since Marys first husband was still living at the time of Johns marriage?

[ohio jones]

This view would conclude that Mary can't remain married to Henry, if Henry had at any point been rightly married according to the "in the beginning model".

That "if" is the problem with this model. The OP gives us no information about Henry's prior wives. Let's say both of them had been previously married and divorced prior to their marriage to Henry. In that case, Henry was free to marry Mary, and thanks to Michael's death, they can remain married.

But what if Henry's first wife's first husband had been previously married. That would mean Henry's first marriage was legit, and his marriage to Mary is not.

But wait, there's more! Henry's first wife's first husband's first wife had been divorced. That flips everything the other way, and now Henry and Mary can stay together.

Unless ...

Do we really want to do the marital equivalent of a title search in cases like this? With the possibility always lurking that we could have told someone to separate (or not) in error, after new facts come to light?

[GaryK]

This view would conclude that Mary can't remain married to Henry, if Henry had at any point been rightly married according to the "in the beginning model".

That "if" is the problem with this model. The OP gives us no information about Henry's prior wives. Let's say both of them had been previously married and divorced prior to their marriage to Henry. In that case, Henry was free to marry Mary, and thanks to Michael's death, they can remain married.

But what if Henry's first wife's first husband had been previously married. That would mean Henry's first marriage was legit, and his marriage to Mary is not.

But wait, there's more! Henry's first wife's first husband's first wife had been divorced. That flips everything the other way, and now Henry and Mary can stay together.

Unless ...

Do we really want to do the marital equivalent of a title search in cases like this? With the possibility always lurking that we could have told someone to separate (or not) in error, after new facts come to light?

I have thought about such situations often. Some of the situations we worked with in Liberia required a lengthy process in order to discern what the marital state of the individuals were.

I would ask the question - if the individuals involved sincerely desire to become a part of a CA church, what are the alternatives? What model gets to the bottom of the big question of who God has joined together?

[Ernie]

Question only for current members at a plain, conservative Mennonite church. If you are not currently a member at a Mennonite church that requires women to wear a covering, please don’t post for a week.

Did you mean to say Mennonite or is Anabaptist ok?