Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

[Hats Off]

Ah yes, trying to apply the Old Testament when the Jews had an actual temple to today... we don't have a "storehouse" to give to.

In New Testament life we should live as if all of our things are God's and we are just stewards. He wants 100%, not 10%.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Our "tithes" should go to widows and orphans. Yep, there I said it. Nobody really follows this because it would create too much of an issue. If we did, I don't know what would happen.

Also Jews tithed twice a year, not every week.

Tithing was 'pre' temple, 'pre' Mosaic law- tithe literally means 10% by definition but of course it is not limited to 10%- but it was given by Abram centuries before the law was given to Moses.
Who told Abraham to give Melchizadek, the High Priest of God (fulfilled in Christ) a tithe? this took place before God established Israel & the Mosaic Laws-

Genesis 14:
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him atithe of all.

There are 'tithes' and 'offerings' - but tithes were pre "law" and carried into the New Covenant Church as well as offerings so there really is no limitation-

Or as Don Kraybill says in "The Upside Down Kingdom", God is more interested in what we keep than what we give.

[Wade]

Ah yes, trying to apply the Old Testament when the Jews had an actual temple to today... we don't have a "storehouse" to give to.

In New Testament life we should live as if all of our things are God's and we are just stewards. He wants 100%, not 10%.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Our "tithes" should go to widows and orphans. Yep, there I said it. Nobody really follows this because it would create too much of an issue. If we did, I don't know what would happen.

Also Jews tithed twice a year, not every week.

Tithing was 'pre' temple, 'pre' Mosaic law- tithe literally means 10% by definition but of course it is not limited to 10%- but it was given by Abram centuries before the law was given to Moses.
Who told Abraham to give Melchizadek, the High Priest of God (fulfilled in Christ) a tithe? this took place before God established Israel & the Mosaic Laws-

Genesis 14:
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him atithe of all.

There are 'tithes' and 'offerings' - but tithes were pre "law" and carried into the New Covenant Church as well as offerings so there really is no limitation-

I have heard these almost exact words taught in our evangelical church. Problem being that the only thing I have seen from this type of reasoning is people often feel justified keeping back a big part of the rest on their own desires, entertainment, etc...

Mark 12:
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

So the money that you tithe to God; whose superscription is on it? Is it not American or Canadian government issued tender?!
So could teaching tithing with money actually teaching giving Caesars things to God and not God's things to God?

Please note that I am not against tithing(I think it is a good discipline) but I think the point is getting lost and skewed with telling people to give a minimum 10% of government issued money to the church being a required command from God for the new testament church.

[Sudsy]

I don't know about your location but where I live church signs are most often advertising the next meal of sorts to primarily raise monies. Come to this supper or pancake breakfast, etc. And often there is good value for monies given that makes the 'donation' less than what one would pay for a similar meal at a restaurant. So, in the process, it could be taking business away from local restaurants. It is like saying if it is a good deal for me, then this is how I will do my giving.

And 'donations' to radio and TV ministries - for an X dollar gift we will send you such and such in return. You are not buying anything from us, we are just exchanging gifts. I wonder what God thinks of this kind of giving. Is this laying up for ourselves treasure in heaven or is this a way to get something for ourselves and still feel like we are being charitable ? I wonder how many make donations and tell the receiver to not send anything in return as they are laying up treasures in heaven.

I think areas like prayer and fasting and giving, Jesus pointed to it being done in secret and then God will do the open rewarding.

I know I'm straying a bit from 'tithing' but since I started this thread I can make the rules.

[Valerie]

Tithing was 'pre' temple, 'pre' Mosaic law- tithe literally means 10% by definition but of course it is not limited to 10%- but it was given by Abram centuries before the law was given to Moses.
Who told Abraham to give Melchizadek, the High Priest of God (fulfilled in Christ) a tithe? this took place before God established Israel & the Mosaic Laws-

Genesis 14:
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him atithe of all.

There are 'tithes' and 'offerings' - but tithes were pre "law" and carried into the New Covenant Church as well as offerings so there really is no limitation-

Interesting to me how 'tithing' is not thought of by some as a tenth. In our MB church I have heard a sermon that the tenth idea is no longer a NT practise but recently our teaching pastor, from a Pentecostal background, preached that it is. When I looked up an article in the MB Herald it says this 'God is more interested in the heart than in the amount'. 'Tithing' is spoken more of setting aside an amount and the word 'tithe' and 'giving' seem to be used interchangeably.

http://mbherald.com/10-tips-tithing/

Valerie, here is some 'push back' on tithes being pre law. Questions arise such as - Just because Abraham tithed to Mel was it a command of God before the law ? Did God require Abraham to tithe ? Why did Abraham tithe ? What did Abraham actually tithe ? To whom did Abraham give this tithe to ? Some have suggested answers to these questions but are they obvious in what we read ? We are warned not to add to scripture. In the what did Abraham tithe it reads as though Abraham tithed the spoils of the war he just won. Taking people's goods and kid napping people. I do think history supports the idea that tithing was a practise prior to the law by some kingdoms like the Babylonians but can we build a doctrine on this one statement that Abraham tithed as God required him to do and this supports tithing as a pre law practise ? Could Abraham be following the practise of his culture in how kings were treated ? He tithed but not of his own property. And we don't read that he ever tithed again. Jacob promised to give a tenth but there is no recording he ever did.

I think if tithing was to continue as a NT practise in the New Covenant period, this verse would read much differently than it does. Are we to take for granted that the early church tithed beyond this instruction on giving ?

1 Corinthians 16:2: “On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income.”

After Pentecost there just isn't any reference to giving a tithed, a tenth so it would seem this was an Old Covenant practise. Actually, for those blessed with much, a tenth is too little to give considering what one is left to live with.

We do not see the command from God to give, which was done by Abel & Cain. Where does Scripture say God told them to give? Yet, we know they both did- God was pleased with Abel's, with Cain's He was not- yet there were not any written instructions that we can point to, that would reveal what God originally intended. Did Abel & Cain just dream it up? I don't think so. It just isn't written. It also was an Old Testament practice for women to veil. Yet we do not see this 'told' by God in the Old Testament- yet they did- how did women know to do this?
So women already veiled, and when Christianity was brought to the Gentiles, the Gentile converts had to be taught to cover their heads ( the women) but it was keeping with what the Jewish women already had done. Where do we see the first requirement of it in Old Testament?
Interesting-

Again- Abraham gave a tithe- and the definition of tithe is 10%- that wasn't a modern made up word or definition. Offerings, are when one gives over and above the 10% God makes the distinction in Malachi-

But you say it was an Old Covenant practice, yet it was done before the Old Covenant was made- and as I said, it is never an expectation to 'only' tithe and that's what offerings are about (or another word is "almsgiving".

I think that people are afraid of the word tithe but it is no more a 'law' word than headcovering- both are done from the heart. Evangelicals know that God loves a 'cheerful' giver so at least in the Churches we were part of for decades, the Pastor didn't have any sermons about tithing- I know they are out there though.

From Malachi 3: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

It is God's language, the tithe- and he makes a distinction between tithe & offerings- we know the difference- He knows our hearts- I don't think it is a good thing to judge others about- we are to examine our own hearts in this area.
(really I was addressing Josh's point that it was only Mosaic Law, but if that was the case, Abraham wouldn't have 'tithed' centuries before Mosaic Law)

[Sudsy]

We do not see the command from God to give, which was done by Abel & Cain. Where does Scripture say God told them to give? Yet, we know they both did- God was pleased with Abel's, with Cain's He was not- yet there were not any written instructions that we can point to, that would reveal what God originally intended. Did Abel & Cain just dream it up? I don't think so. It just isn't written. It also was an Old Testament practice for women to veil. Yet we do not see this 'told' by God in the Old Testament- yet they did- how did women know to do this?
So women already veiled, and when Christianity was brought to the Gentiles, the Gentile converts had to be taught to cover their heads ( the women) but it was keeping with what the Jewish women already had done. Where do we see the first requirement of it in Old Testament?

I am not questioning that giving an offering to God goes back to Cain and Abel but there is no indication that what they offered to God was a tenth of anything.
Interesting-

Again- Abraham gave a tithe- and the definition of tithe is 10%- that wasn't a modern made up word or definition. Offerings, are when one gives over and above the 10% God makes the distinction in Malachi-

Yes there is one reference to Abraham giving a tenth to Melchizedek of the spoils of a victory as Hebrews 7:4 says. How do you know then that this was a practise that Abraham did with all his wealth ?

But you say it was an Old Covenant practice, yet it was done before the Old Covenant was made- and as I said, it is never an expectation to 'only' tithe and that's what offerings are about (or another word is "almsgiving".

I think that people are afraid of the word tithe but it is no more a 'law' word than headcovering- both are done from the heart. Evangelicals know that God loves a 'cheerful' giver so at least in the Churches we were part of for decades, the Pastor didn't have any sermons about tithing- I know they are out there though.

That surprises me as the Pentecostal church I grew up in preached tithing + offerings often. I remember a buddy of mine being prayed for by an older saint and the prayer was 'teach him to tithe Lord, teach him to tithe'. My buddy had been tithing and he didn't know what to make of this prayer. We kidded him at times repeating this prayer.

From Malachi 3: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

It is God's language, the tithe- and he makes a distinction between tithe & offerings- we know the difference- He knows our hearts- I don't think it is a good thing to judge others about- we are to examine our own hearts in this area.
(really I was addressing Josh's point that it was only Mosaic Law, but if that was the case, Abraham wouldn't have 'tithed' centuries before Mosaic Law)

I agree tithes and offerings are two separate things. So, according to 1 Cor 16:2 you would see this as speaking of offerings only as it does not mention tithes ?

Also a tenth of what ? Income only ? Gross income ? Net income ? 10 % of gross income when one is on welfare is quite a sacrifice compared to 10% of someone earning $100,000 a year ?

Anyway, here is a link to some interesting stats on tithing and giving - https://healthresearchfunding.org/21-ti ... tatistics/

[Hats Off]

I will continue to argue that while tithing may be a good discipline, expecting in all cases that we will tithe 10% of gross is absolutely ignorant. A Canadian dairy farmer may have net or taxable income of less than 5% of gross so he would have nothing left to live on and only half enough to pay his operating costs. How many businesses have net income that is greater than 10% of gross income?

I was at an Anabaptist meeting where the topic was finances and the one topic was about tithing. A mother who was raising her son by herself, on a very meagre income, took the mic in question period and in tears asked, so even if 100% of her income is not sufficient to live on, should she still give 10% and try to live on 90%? The answer was yes.

I find the poorest financial advice usually comes from people who have never had to struggle with finances.

[Josh]

It seems tithing as a commandment (which isn’t in the NT, other than implications we should all have a common purse and not regard our possessions as our own - which only Hutterites do) is a way of thinking that misses the message of the gospel.

Once I was a born again person I wanted my whole life to help build the kingdom. That includes my job and how I spend and save my money. Sometimes I find giving directly to a foundation, my local church, etc can help build the kingdom. Other times how I spend money on myself can help build the kingdom. If I don’t keep myself healthy, I’m not much use for serving others.

[Joy]

What about the poor widow that gave not 10%, but ALL that she had, and Jesus praised her? And it wasn't to an Anabaptist-type recipient, either.

[Hats Off]

Well the gross income method for my dairy farmer would mean borrowing money in order to give and live - more each year, until he would have given the entire farm business, which would leave him with no gross income, but all the debt.

[Sudsy]

Well the gross income method for my dairy farmer would mean borrowing money in order to give and live - more each year, until he would have given the entire farm business, which would leave him with no gross income, but all the debt.

And the text Valerie pointed to in Malachi 3:6-12 would say doing what God expects will not put you into debt. This text says to 'test me in this'. I was raised that because Jesus told the Pharisees to continue tithing in the NT, so the tither Christians see this as a principle God established for all time. The text begins 'I the Lord do not change'.

“I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the Lord Almighty. “But you ask, ‘How are we to return?’ “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ “In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.

Other texts along this line -

Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine. Proverbs 3:9-10

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38

Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 2 Corinthians 9:6

Personally, I don't give the whole 10% to my local church (which I was taught is the 'storehouse' referred to in Malachi) and select other charities as I think we spend too much of church income on ourselves. However, in relation to what I have left over to live on, I certainly could be giving more.

The families whose surnames are now the brands Heinz, Kraft, Woolworths, Wrigley, Hershey and Colgate were all faithful tithers. I think it was Mr. Colgate who ended up living off the 10% and giving the 90%.