Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
What concerns me about the big dollars flowing in many Christian churches today is the amount kept for our own comforts -
cafes, fancy buildings, extravagant eating, large pastor salaries and the such.
A legitimate concern- different 'opinions' out there on all these things- Neil & I served for 8 years in our cafe at our previous church. Since we were there in the initial meetings- the reason the cafe was added was to encourage people to stay after church to help build relationships & fellowship- it was very effective for this- I know in other churches they have agape meals or something else after church somewhere in the church to provide the brothers & sisters to congregate & fellowship- maybe to get to know visitors better, etc- because our present church also has a cafe, we have been able to sit down with people & have coffee and get to know them better- so it's really not just for enjoyment- but fellowship is enjoyable- some people believe Church buildings give God glory- different opinions on this- I can see both opinions as legitimate- the motive of the heart is what God always sees. I cannot always see into hearts in some of these things as Jesus could.
You are right Valerie. Cafes are a good place to promote fellowship. I just wished that fellowship was more about spiritual things than it is temporal goings on. Now our cafe is pretty swanky. Special comfortable and stylish furnishing with the special coffee machines and such. When I am around that environment I keep thinking about how those monies may have been used and still provide a nice, less extravagant place to fellowship.

I remember in my youth that we would spend hours fellowshipping after church. Sometimes after mid-night on a Sunday evening. But food in the church ? Not allowed. Today that same Pentecostal church, largest church in the city, not only has a cafe and childrens indoor playground (like MacDonalds) but allows you to bring your beverage into the sanctuary. In our MB church beverages too are transferred into the sanctuary. I suspect next will be theatre seats with drink holders and perhaps foot stools and ushers selling pop corn and such. Perhaps we may have gone a bit too far in this ? What do you think ?

One argument for this is to make outsiders feel welcomed and comfortable. But if the Gospel gets preached according to the scriptures, this comfort will be short lived. Our church gatherings should be quite uncomfortable to an unbeliever, is how I think the scriptures suggest. I still really believe evangelizing was and is primarily meant to be outside the local church. Lead people to Christ where they habit and then bring them in to be discipled. However both my parents gave their lives to the Lord in a local church setting where they became very convicted of their sin and repented. Perhaps I'm being a bit too narrow minded here.

Whoops wandered off topic. :oops:
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ohio jones
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:Whoops wandered off topic. :oops:
That's okay, we expect at least 10 percent of the posts to be off topic. Especially in this thread.
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

ohio jones wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Whoops wandered off topic. :oops:
That's okay, we expect at least 10 percent of the posts to be off topic. Especially in this thread.
But...but...not everybody can be that far off.
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
The Father is the one who taught me- and He is the one who said test Me, and He was faithful to take care of my children and I- a single woman with two children (in late 20's early 30's)- and He was faithful to His own words and promises. For that, I give Him glory- and we didn't need to be a burden on the Church because of many ways He provided for us and even in the course of 6 years had doubled my income by opening doors of advancement I never expected at all. I wasn't looking for a 'vending machine' but I trusted Him at His word, tithed according to my income, and was able to give above & take care of my little family & help others when possible- Jesus, before He became the incarnate Son, was well aware of what the Father said & promised.
Please don't put words in my mouth that are totally out of context of what I shared and what I believe about how the Father looks at this. As I said, tithing, and giving of your firsfruits PREdates Mosaic law, and even goes back to Cain & Abel so I have always believed in tithes AND offerings, and have not needed to have the Church give me handouts- even as a single parent. But if I did, I know that the Churches I always attended had funds to help people in need- but since God provided, I didn't need to take from others, and for that God was true to His own words- as He promised. We learned to trust Him. It's precious and so consider what God said about Himself in this matter-
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Hats Off
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Hats Off »

silentreader wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I simply cannot understand a tithe as always applying to gross income. A dairy farmer in Canada may have gross milk sales of around a million dollars but taxable or disposable income of less than 10%. That is before he has cared for his family or made any principal payments. He might have a tithe of $100,000 to pay while borrowing more money just to feed his family.

And, no, I am not an advocate of tithing 10% of anything. I really dislike the strict 10% minimum tithe teaching. It is sometimes impossible and always impractical. Giving should never be reduced to a formula.


True giving is giving until it hurts.
Aren't you sending somewhat of a mixed signal here? Do we give only what we can 'afford', or do we give till it hurts?
I am a bit mixed up so a mixed signal is to be expected. What I think I can afford and what someone else thinks I should be able to afford can be quite far apart. When can we afford to give - is it only after the new car or truck or tractor is paid for? I guess giving should not have much to do with a formula and should also be left up to the individual. If I am pressured into giving, is that truly "giving?" Giving should be from the heart, IMO.
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

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Josh wrote:So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
This is indeed, an inflammatory topic, I've noticed that before among us Mennonites, it saddens me, I guess, that it is so.
I'm not trying to sell any particular method of giving, one thing does not necessarily work for everyone else. It scares me though when someone is grudging about giving back of God's goodness to us because they are afraid they will not have enough left for themselves.
Personally, my experience has been that when I give back to God for His work what He has entrusted to me, I never seem to have too little left over. And even when there was need that I give more yet, it hardly seemed to change what was left.
I am not saying that when we give more, then God gives us more for ourselves as a reward, not at all.
But I do believe that it is a Scriptural principle that if I in faith faithfully give Him back what He asks of me, then He will give me more, not for myself, but in the expectation that I will be a conduit for what He has given me to meet the need that He will make me aware of.
Great blessing remains a blessing only as long as we use it to honor and glorify God.
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RZehr
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by RZehr »

silentreader wrote: This is indeed, an inflammatory topic, I've noticed that before among us Mennonites, it saddens me, I guess, that it is so.
I'm not trying to sell any particular method of giving, one thing does not necessarily work for everyone else. It scares me though when someone is grudging about giving back of God's goodness to us because they are afraid they will not have enough left for themselves.
Personally, my experience has been that when I give back to God for His work what He has entrusted to me, I never seem to have too little left over. And even when there was need that I give more yet, it hardly seemed to change what was left.
I am not saying that when we give more, then God gives us more for ourselves as a reward, not at all.
But I do believe that it is a Scriptural principle that if I in faith faithfully give Him back what He asks of me, then He will give me more, not for myself, but in the expectation that I will be a conduit for what He has given me to meet the need that He will make me aware of.
Great blessing remains a blessing only as long as we use it to honor and glorify God.
Amen. This has been my experience as well. In fact it is so reliable, that I can almost see why someone may go "off the deep end" to the health and wealth idea.
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

1. We are to help anyone in need. That's my attitude. Help and love people. I will commit whatever resources I have.

2. Others have helped me so much. It's humbling to get a handout but I needed to be humbled. I think God wants to keep us all humble like that.

Having received handouts makes me a lot more willing to give to a friend who made some mistakes and now his licence is suspended. Or he doesn't have $$ for fuel to drive to come hang out with a few of us brothers. I cannot just say "no" though I can offer advice alongside cash help. And my experience has been that my advice has been well received and the folks I have helped are moving into better stewardship.

Just like happened to me when very wise Mennonites helped me out, but also saw my spiritual need and counselled me.

3. If God's going to double my pre-Christian income, we're talking about a $255k-$380k salary. I'm not sure the Lord wants me handling that much money. He has seen to it to give me a job I am very content with which provides much more money than I need, to the point I am seeking counsel about how much to be giving away.

4. I don't serve God to be healthy or wealthy or prosperous. The Mennonites in the Congo are stuck living in the forest right now. They aren't doing so well in terms of material things. And I bet many of them were generous givers. The reputation they have, from an acquaintance of mine who worked for a mining firm in the Congo is that they are exceptionally generous and will always help anyone, even a sketchy contractor with armed guards with him - provide a place to stay and share food expecting nothing in return.

Seems my duty is to set how I can help brothers and sisters like that.
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Josh wrote:So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
This is indeed, an inflammatory topic, I've noticed that before among us Mennonites, it saddens me, I guess, that it is so.
I'm not trying to sell any particular method of giving, one thing does not necessarily work for everyone else. It scares me though when someone is grudging about giving back of God's goodness to us because they are afraid they will not have enough left for themselves.
Personally, my experience has been that when I give back to God for His work what He has entrusted to me, I never seem to have too little left over. And even when there was need that I give more yet, it hardly seemed to change what was left.
I am not saying that when we give more, then God gives us more for ourselves as a reward, not at all.
But I do believe that it is a Scriptural principle that if I in faith faithfully give Him back what He asks of me, then He will give me more, not for myself, but in the expectation that I will be a conduit for what He has given me to meet the need that He will make me aware of.
Great blessing remains a blessing only as long as we use it to honor and glorify God.
Amen, beautifully put-
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Sudsy
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Sudsy »

It would be interesting to know what those who don't follow say, 10% of net income plus additional offerings really do give in this regard to their net income. Do non-tithers end up giving more than tithers+ or less ?

I remember when people would suggest that tithing was about giving and giving could be done without dealing with money. No doubt giving goes well beyond money but Jesus referred to it often. Could be for some of us, that is the hardest area to submit.

I have a cousin in the Salvation Army. She was raised Pentecostal and married a Salvationist. She strongly believes in tithing. In the Salvation Army they probably deal with the poor more than any other Christian organization. She would get these new, poor converts tithing asap. When they got their cheques, often from government welfare sources, they would immediately set aside the 10% for Sunday's offering. To her this was one of the basic steps in discipleship. This I found quite interesting to say the least.
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