Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:Would tithing on the net income would be closer to the old testament practice than tithing on the gross income?
Not sure. Consult the Talmud? My opinion is it would be, but I'm not really that qualified to say.

I once had a preacher of some kind of IFB variety explain to me you need to tithe based on the very top line of your paycheque. I asked him about self employed people who pay an extra 8% or so on top of that. He looked puzzled for a bit, but then affirmed you needed to tithe off of that too.

Hard to understand why someone should tithe 2% less because they're an employee than a self employed contractor would...

Reminds me of http://us.search.ccli.com/songs/530373/ ... he-service if you've ever heard Isaac Air Freight.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:
they believe tithing, as an act of obedience, had resulted in many blessings in their lives.
I've seen and heard references like this a lot. Frankly, it bothers me. The notion that you'll be more blessed if you're giving a certain percentage of your money is pretty low.

I feel this promotes a totally unrealistic, selfish motivation to tithe. Perhaps I'm just interpreting wrong.. but it often comes across this way to me.
In Anabaptist circles I have never heard this taught at all.

Interestingly, our giving / finances tend to be in excellent shape, especially when you consider we are in the hook for any member's medical needs, disability, etc.
I have never heard anything about money, except when a special need was mentioned, and that is uncommon. We are neither a rich nor a large church, yet the money is always there. It is just a different model than your average evangelical church.

I was also shocked how much of the money went to ministries and needs outside the church, it blesses those outside the church as well.

J.M.
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Sudsy
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Sudsy »

So if I read these posts correctly, only Hats Off indicated they are required to give 10% off the top as a tithe. Pentecostals and others do use those scriptures Valerie gave and also view the 10% as a standard minimum. Offerings to various causes go beyond that and sometimes greater than the tithe.

I think this story Jesus told is worth considering in this -

"Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on." Mark 12:41-44

Someone else made this point that God looks at giving in relationship to how much you could give not what you do give. I think it was Mr. Colgate (toothpaste) who began giving 10% and by the time he died he was giving 90% and keeping the 10% for himself. And also the NT does say our giving should not be because it is required (not of necessity) but from the heart as God loves it when we do it cheerfully.

What concerns me about the big dollars flowing in many Christian churches today is the amount kept for our own comforts -
cafes, fancy buildings, extravagant eating, large pastor salaries and the such.
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RZehr
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote: I think this story Jesus told is worth considering in this -

"Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on." Mark 12:41-44

Someone else made this point that God looks at giving in relationship to how much you could give not what you do give. I think it was Mr. Colgate (toothpaste) who began giving 10% and by the time he died he was giving 90% and keeping the 10% for himself. And also the NT does say our giving should not be because it is required (not of necessity) but from the heart as God loves it when we do it cheerfully.

What concerns me about the big dollars flowing in many Christian churches today is the amount kept for our own comforts -
cafes, fancy buildings, extravagant eating, large pastor salaries and the such.
:up:
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:Ah yes, trying to apply the Old Testament when the Jews had an actual temple to today... we don't have a "storehouse" to give to.

In New Testament life we should live as if all of our things are God's and we are just stewards. He wants 100%, not 10%.
Well the mistake is to not realize that tithing was pre-Mosaic law-the footnote in my Orthodox Study Bible has this to say regarding what I shared, God's heart on the matter in Malachi 3:

"How have we insulted you? God answers this self-righteous question pointedly: they have witheld tithes and offerings. A tithe is 10% of one's income; offerings are additional gifts. Some modern Christians reject tithing claiming it is a part of the Law not applicable today. But they forget that Abram (Abraham) tithed to Mechizadek five hundred years before the Law was given to Moses (Gn 14) And Melchizedek is a type of Christ (Heb 6:19-7:6). To those who tithe, God promises a blessing until it is overflowing"

Also, giving of your firstfruits goes back to Abel & Cain.

God sees the heart when we give, that's what matters- I don't know anyone who gives 100% of their income (vs 10% Josh)
I will say this- when I was a single parent decades ago, and I did believe in what God said in Malachi 3-and applied it, and also prayed to trust the Lord in all things- He really did pour out blessings on me- in miraculous ways- I wasn't looking for anything but to trust Him at His word and take care of my two children- I always tithed and helped others as well and God was true to His Word in ways that made me feel like a precious jewel in His hands, a loving Father-
But the point of me bringing up Malachi 3 earlier was to convey God was the one who told us to test Him on this- this is the only place I can remember God telling His elect to 'test Him'.
I think that Evangelicals are not trying to apply Mosaic law to this but do recognize tithing predates Mosaic law- but in the 20 years we belonged as active members to Foursquare Gospel- only ONE time did I hear our pastor bringing up tithing- we were never ever pressured to give- in our church- I don't think I could belong to a church that did put that emphasis on it's congregation. Where we are presently attending, there has never been a word said about tithing- although I am sure a teaching has been taught at some time- and all the times we were with the Orthodox, it was never brought up but there was strong encouragement in all these places to give to the poor- and of course we see that they spread the Gospel worldwide and missionary work which I also admire about the Anabaptists-
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
What concerns me about the big dollars flowing in many Christian churches today is the amount kept for our own comforts -
cafes, fancy buildings, extravagant eating, large pastor salaries and the such.
A legitimate concern- different 'opinions' out there on all these things- Neil & I served for 8 years in our cafe at our previous church. Since we were there in the initial meetings- the reason the cafe was added was to encourage people to stay after church to help build relationships & fellowship- it was very effective for this- I know in other churches they have agape meals or something else after church somewhere in the church to provide the brothers & sisters to congregate & fellowship- maybe to get to know visitors better, etc- because our present church also has a cafe, we have been able to sit down with people & have coffee and get to know them better- so it's really not just for enjoyment- but fellowship is enjoyable- some people believe Church buildings give God glory- different opinions on this- I can see both opinions as legitimate- the motive of the heart is what God always sees. I cannot always see into hearts in some of these things as Jesus could.
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
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RZehr
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by RZehr »

The tithing teaching reminds me a bit of Sabbath keeping.
OT you tithed as a minimum, if you were rich it was a great system. NT you give as you are able, if you are rich then much is required.
OT you kept the Sabboth day holy. NT we keep every day holy.
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Hats Off
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Hats Off »

I simply cannot understand a tithe as always applying to gross income. A dairy farmer in Canada may have gross milk sales of around a million dollars but taxable or disposable income of less than 10%. That is before he has cared for his family or made any principal payments. He might have a tithe of $100,000 to pay while borrowing more money just to feed his family.

And, no, I am not an advocate of tithing 10% of anything. I really dislike the strict 10% minimum tithe teaching. It is sometimes impossible and always impractical. Giving should never be reduced to a formula. True giving is giving until it hurts.
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:I simply cannot understand a tithe as always applying to gross income. A dairy farmer in Canada may have gross milk sales of around a million dollars but taxable or disposable income of less than 10%. That is before he has cared for his family or made any principal payments. He might have a tithe of $100,000 to pay while borrowing more money just to feed his family.

And, no, I am not an advocate of tithing 10% of anything. I really dislike the strict 10% minimum tithe teaching. It is sometimes impossible and always impractical. Giving should never be reduced to a formula.


True giving is giving until it hurts.
Aren't you sending somewhat of a mixed signal here? Do we give only what we can 'afford', or do we give till it hurts?
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