Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Hats Off
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Hats Off »

I have always asked - 10 % of what? Gross income, net income, taxable income, etc. and what are the rules for determining those numbers? Should we go by our tax returns, and if so is IT on the cash method or accrual? If we cheat on our taxes or buy new equipment to reduce our taxes should that also affect our giving? Don Kraybill points out that the 10% tithe is a good reason for some people to give less than they should - if you have given your 10% you are free to keep the rest for yourself! He points out that if one person has income of $100,000 and gives 10%, he still has $90,000 for himself. If another person has $10,000 income and gives 10% he has only $9,000 left for himself. Don says, and I agree, that of much greater concern is the amount that we keep to "consume upon ourselves." I was at a meeting on Anabaptist finances where a single mother supporting a young son stood up and asked "Our household income is not enough to properly support the two of us; do I still need to give 10% first?" The answer was "yes!" HELLO!!!???
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

Josh wrote:
silentreader wrote:In my opinion, if a Christian wants to practise the literal tithe, then that is what he should be giving to the local church. But then he should be willing to give at least another 10-15% or upwards, as the Lord prospers, to other needs.

edited to add...I think that more closely follows the OT principle of tithing.
I can't think of a reason the "tithe" should go to the local church. We no longer have priests nor a temple, and giving money for the maintenance of a church building, etc. isn't really the same thing as "giving to God" (nor is giving money to pay a pastor's salary).

In addition, some people don't have 10% of their income disposable. It's a heavy burden to impose this on them. Some people are even needing to receive help. How can they give away 10%?
Notice what I actually said..."If the Christian wants to practise the literal tithe"...
As far as giving to the church is concerned, that would include General Fund, School Fund, Ministers' Travel and Support, Sunday School materials, utilities, benevolence fund, etc.
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

If one wants to practice the literal tithe, they will have difficulty finding the temple to tithe to.
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Josh wrote:
silentreader wrote:In my opinion, if a Christian wants to practise the literal tithe, then that is what he should be giving to the local church. But then he should be willing to give at least another 10-15% or upwards, as the Lord prospers, to other needs.

edited to add...I think that more closely follows the OT principle of tithing.
I can't think of a reason the "tithe" should go to the local church. We no longer have priests nor a temple, and giving money for the maintenance of a church building, etc. isn't really the same thing as "giving to God" (nor is giving money to pay a pastor's salary).

In addition, some people don't have 10% of their income disposable. It's a heavy burden to impose this on them. Some people are even needing to receive help. How can they give away 10%?
Notice what I actually said..."If the Christian wants to practise the literal tithe"...
As far as giving to the church is concerned, that would include General Fund, School Fund, Ministers' Travel and Support, Sunday School materials, utilities, benevolence fund, etc.
And lest anyone misunderstand further, although I have no control over whether someone does so intentionally, I should perhaps have said 'the principle of the literal tithe', my error in clarification.
Also, we do not actually have a church school, there are several other MWF churches in the area that do, the School Fund is so that young families in our church can afford to send their children to Christian Schools.
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:I have always asked - 10 % of what? Gross income, net income, taxable income, etc. and what are the rules for determining those numbers? Should we go by our tax returns, and if so is IT on the cash method or accrual? If we cheat on our taxes or buy new equipment to reduce our taxes should that also affect our giving? Don Kraybill points out that the 10% tithe is a good reason for some people to give less than they should - if you have given your 10% you are free to keep the rest for yourself! He points out that if one person has income of $100,000 and gives 10%, he still has $90,000 for himself. If another person has $10,000 income and gives 10% he has only $9,000 left for himself. Don says, and I agree, that of much greater concern is the amount that we keep to "consume upon ourselves." I was at a meeting on Anabaptist finances where a single mother supporting a young son stood up and asked "Our household income is not enough to properly support the two of us; do I still need to give 10% first?" The answer was "yes!" HELLO!!!???
If I'm not mistaken the principle of the tithe was that it came right off the top, God's 'share' was the cream. But it didn't take long until that principle was subverted, "I needed to look after myself first and God got what I could spare". That thinking is alive and well among us. We do love our :shock: money.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Josh wrote:
RZehr wrote:We don't teach the importance of tithing. We teach the importance of giving, sharing, generosity, and meeting needs.
This is a real difference between us and Pentecostal groups. In a Pentecostal or typical charismatic service, every single service has 4 - 5 minutes spent encouraging tithing. And sermons will be regularly given (usually sourced from the end of Malachi) on the importance of giving.

Examples of places where I have experienced this are Hillsong's various campuses, Faith Family church (a local megachurch affiliated with both Word of Faith/Kenneth Copeland/Ken Hagin and Hillsong), various Apostolic Pentecostal churches (although not nearly to the degree of Hillsong), and various Baptist churches.

It's honestly quite a shock to be around Mennonites and literally never get asked for money. I've probably been given more money than I've received since becoming a conservative Mennonite.
I have been in churches that asked 5 times during one service. There was soooo much pressure and if you did not have it they would preach you will be blessed if you did it anyway.

We asked about tithing during instruction class and the 10% thing. They did not do 10% and seemed surprised by the question. We were surprised they didn't push anything. It actually made giving easy. I am not sure what it is but something about people making money the focus of a service does the opposite of what they intend.

However, the structure of conservative churches we have been to are different. At many churches Pentecostal, etc. the ministry are full time or that is their career. The conservative Mennonite churches we attend the Pastors have other means of income.
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by ohio jones »

Josh wrote:If one wants to practice the literal tithe, they will have difficulty finding the temple to tithe to.
Don’t you know that you are God’s temple?
(1 Cor 3:16)
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silentreader
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by silentreader »

ohio jones wrote:
Josh wrote:If one wants to practice the literal tithe, they will have difficulty finding the temple to tithe to.
Don’t you know that you are God’s temple?
(1 Cor 3:16)
Still...it's sometimes hard to find God's temple...
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

ohio jones wrote:
Josh wrote:If one wants to practice the literal tithe, they will have difficulty finding the temple to tithe to.
Don’t you know that you are God’s temple?
(1 Cor 3:16)
A theology of tithing to myself would be convenient.

I knew someone once who convinced herself that her student debt for her masters' degree was for the good of ministry, since she studied leadership studies, ministry, etc.

So when she took a sabbatical from attending church, and didn't have a home church to tithe to (which is a very critical teaching in Pentecostal circles), she "tithed" to herself by paying off her student loans with 10% of her income.
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RZehr
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by RZehr »

silentreader wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I have always asked - 10 % of what? Gross income, net income, taxable income, etc. and what are the rules for determining those numbers? Should we go by our tax returns, and if so is IT on the cash method or accrual? If we cheat on our taxes or buy new equipment to reduce our taxes should that also affect our giving? Don Kraybill points out that the 10% tithe is a good reason for some people to give less than they should - if you have given your 10% you are free to keep the rest for yourself! He points out that if one person has income of $100,000 and gives 10%, he still has $90,000 for himself. If another person has $10,000 income and gives 10% he has only $9,000 left for himself. Don says, and I agree, that of much greater concern is the amount that we keep to "consume upon ourselves." I was at a meeting on Anabaptist finances where a single mother supporting a young son stood up and asked "Our household income is not enough to properly support the two of us; do I still need to give 10% first?" The answer was "yes!" HELLO!!!???
If I'm not mistaken the principle of the tithe was that it came right off the top, God's 'share' was the cream. But it didn't take long until that principle was subverted, "I needed to look after myself first and God got what I could spare". That thinking is alive and well among us. We do love our :shock: money.
Would tithing on the net income would be closer to the old testament practice than tithing on the gross income?
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