Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

silentreader wrote:
Josh wrote:So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
Nowhere.

What is being expressed is the Oral Roberts/Kenneth Hagen/Kenneth Copland seed faith principle. I could go on and on, but it is a corruption of the old puritan doctrine of providence (Which I believe to be a result of their reformed methodology that the puritans used of appropriating promises of Israel to the church), that material blessings are a sign of God's favor.

Just tell that one to a 16th or 17th cent. mennonite and they would give a very puzzled look.

Acts 14:22 ""strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.""


J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Josh wrote:So God is a vending machine?

Give more tithes to the local church, and he'll take care of my finances?

Where did Jesus teach that?
Nowhere.

What is being expressed is the Oral Roberts/Kenneth Hagen/Kenneth Copland seed faith principle. I could go on and on, but it is a corruption of the old puritan doctrine of providence (Which I believe to be a result of their reformed methodology that the puritans used of appropriating promises of Israel to the church), that material blessings are a sign of God's favor.

Just tell that one to a 16th or 17th cent. mennonite and they would give a very puzzled look.

Acts 14:22 ""strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.""


J.M.
I am not a fan of the men you mention- so no, what was being expressed was God's heart from Malachi 3- but I do recognize that tithing goes all the way back to Abraham- look up tithe in the Scripture- it was not just "Israel" but predates that- Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek-(who as Apostle Paul taught, was a type of Christ, or as I have been taught elsewhere, the pre-incarnate Christ) and God, not the men mentioned above, is the one who offered blessings for those who trusted Him with their tithes and offerings- of course he wants us to do this with the right heart and motives! He knows our hearts!

Now think back to Cain & Abel- who told them to bring an offering to God? did they conjure that up on their own? Did Abraham invent the tithe? I guess this is why I can appreciate the more ancient teachings as they are able to shed light on this- after the Reformation there has been all kinds of opinions on the matter, and yes "Prosperity tithing" is not something we adhere to at all in our home, but rightly dividing the Word of Faith- Jesus did not tell people to quit tithing anywhere that I read- in fact to the Pharisees He said: King James Bible Luke 11:
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Tithing to the Lord has been done it seems since the beginning- without clear words to 'stop'- so I don't find the justification for denominations to believe we are no longer suppose to give tithes and offerings, it's Scriptural since Genesis-
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Josh
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Josh »

Bring an offering to God like Cain & Abel?

Do you think we should start offering burnt offerings?

The New Testament tells us to make our bodies a living sacrifice. It doesn't tell us to bring cash sacrifices.
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:Bring an offering to God like Cain & Abel?

Do you think we should start offering burnt offerings?

The New Testament tells us to make our bodies a living sacrifice. It doesn't tell us to bring cash sacrifices.
Really? The New Testament says nothing about taking up collections? I think you missed a few verses. I'm pointing out the word tithe pre-dates Mosaic law, and giving to God- and the fact that all denominations are getting their understandings right from New Testament and goes back to the principles in the OT- before Israel even existed. Yes collections were taking up 'on the first day of the week' according to the new testament-
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Ernie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Ernie »

A few thoughts:

1. Tithing in the Old Testament was instructed to those who had crops or herds and was not a monetary tithe. Merchants and hired hands were not instructed to tithe. There were opportunities for them to contribute offerings if they wished to do so. 2. In addition to tithes and offerings, there were also sacrifices. The rich sacrificed big animals and the poor sacrificed small animals. When it came to "giving to the Lord", there was a lot of variation in how that was done.
3. There were three tithes for farmers and herdsman which worked out to about 23 & 1/3% per year.
4. I'm not aware that the Levites or priests were expected to tithe but I am open to any knowledge on this subject.
5. If someone today chooses to tithe 10%, rather than give everything above and beyond what they need, I think it would be fine for them to tithe with their money, their time, or any other resource the Lord gives them.
6. I think the underlying basis for tithing teaching today is often one that is based on fear. Fear of disappointing or robbing God. Fear of not being blessed. Fear of not having money to run church programs. Fear of the pastor not being paid enough. Fear of not keeping the commandments. Etc.
7. The other basis for tithing teaching I think is based on a misunderstanding of the Old and New Testament. I think the historical term for those who teach tithing in the New Testament era would be "Judaizer".
8. I think the NT instruction promotes the concepts of mutual aid and sacrificial giving and the concern is more about how much is left over and what is done with what is left over rather than how much is given or what percentage is given.
9. The Kingdom of God is in more need of men and women then it is of money. God can provide money through fishes mouths if needed. Millions of hours are being spent on the job making money to give as tithes or offerings, whenever I think God would be much more delighted if a many people would work less hours and give their time to ministering to people as Jesus did.
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Valerie
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Valerie »

Ernie wrote:.
7. The other basis for tithing teaching I think is based on a misunderstanding of the Old and New Testament. I think the historical term for those who teach tithing in the New Testament era would be "Judaizer".
Not really, I have seen this as a pattern, by Apostle Paul & not Judaizers from 1 Corinthians 16:2 and the fact that it seems to have continued in some form since the earliest days of the Church through these 2000 years-

King James Bible
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

or NIV

New International Version
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
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RZehr
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by RZehr »

Valerie wrote:
Ernie wrote:.
7. The other basis for tithing teaching I think is based on a misunderstanding of the Old and New Testament. I think the historical term for those who teach tithing in the New Testament era would be "Judaizer".
Not really, I have seen this as a pattern, by Apostle Paul & not Judaizers from 1 Corinthians 16:2 and the fact that it seems to have continued in some form since the earliest days of the Church through these 2000 years-

King James Bible
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

or NIV

New International Version
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
In these accounts I see the principal of giving offerings, not tithing. But if one wants to regularly give ten percent of their income, I think that is commendable. I don't think there is anything significant spiritually tied to that rate. If someones circumstances makes them unable to quite hit that rate, then fine; If someone else can easily afford more, then they probably should.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Ernie wrote:.
7. The other basis for tithing teaching I think is based on a misunderstanding of the Old and New Testament. I think the historical term for those who teach tithing in the New Testament era would be "Judaizer".
Not really, I have seen this as a pattern, by Apostle Paul & not Judaizers from 1 Corinthians 16:2 and the fact that it seems to have continued in some form since the earliest days of the Church through these 2000 years-

King James Bible
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

or NIV

New International Version
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
Show me where gentiles were instructed to tithe? It was a part of the system that maintained the temple and Levitical priesthood. All that is gone. Just like circumcision and the dietary laws.

The idea of giving so you might be blessed reached the popular culture through televangelists in the 70s, moving a obscure doctrine into the mainstream. I remember how audacious Oral Roberts was thought to be when he first hit the stage (And I use that word intentionally) I doubt you would find much reference to that sort of teaching before ww2, with the Braham revivals perhaps being an exception. There may be others, and I have not thought back to Azusa street yet.

J.M.

J.M.
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:It would be interesting to know what those who don't follow say, 10% of net income plus additional offerings really do give in this regard to their net income. Do non-tithers end up giving more than tithers+ or less ?
The answer is probably yes!
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Sudsy
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Re: Which Anabaptist Groups Tithe ?

Post by Sudsy »

Tuesday I had a coffee with our teaching pastor at Tim Horton's and in our conversation I told him that was quite a bold sermon he had on tithing. I told him just a few years ago in the same MB church, an elder gave a sermon that tithing was not a New Covenant practise. This elder preached it was in Jesus era prior to Pentecost but not afterward.

We then switched to how monies collected are spent. Seems to me some Anabaptists are much more careful than others that the distribution of offerings is not spent selfishly. Perhaps if our local churches 'tithed the tithe' and kept only 10% for our own local church needs, we would see much more Kingdom growth. Distribution of the Lord's money is an area that I think some of us are going to have to account for someday that won't be pleasant. I know I don't look forward to that day and will be ashamed of how selfish I have kept so much for my own fleshly wants. God be merciful to me a sinner.
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