Overcoming sin

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Bootstrap
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:The greatest command is love. We are commanded to love the Lord our God and to love our neighbour as ourself. On this hang the law and the prophets. This command predated Jesus' birth, but he did show us what true love actually looks like.

By "tempting" I mean my initial goal of being a Christian was to sin less: be nicer to people, keep more promises, and generally be a "good person".

God had something else in mind for me. He wanted me to learn his two greatest commands. That's the whole point of all of this.
I agree with this approach - both theologically and based on my own experience.

If I keep my eyes on my own sin and temptations, what I see is my own sin and temptations, which are death. Repentance involves laying down my life, picking up my cross, and following Jesus. That means laying down my sin, of course, but also following Jesus.

And how do you measure following Jesus? Not just in abstaining from obvious sin, but in actively obeying the greatest commandments.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
How am I expressing my whole-hearted love for God in worship and prayer? What am I doing to really love those closest to me, my family and my brethren? How am I serving the brethren and my neighbors?

Another bicycle analogy: If you try to stay in one place on a bicycle without falling down, you will fall down eventually. That's often the approach we take toward sin - we try to stay in one place spiritually and not fall into sin, guilty about the times we have fallen, worried about falling again, afraid to ask forgiveness after falling yet one more time. But a bicycle was never designed to stay in one place. If you ride the bicycle forward in the right direction, the momentum keeps you upright, you develop a sense of balance, and while you may have occasional wobbles from time to time, and perhaps a fall much more rarely, you are stable and moving in the right direction.

Loving God and neighbor is the way to get the bicycle moving. As long as the focus is on me and my sin and my guilt and worries, the bicycle just keeps falling down.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
betterpromises2
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by betterpromises2 »

Josh wrote:Overcoming sin is a tempting goal for a believer, but it seems Jesus' greatest command was simply love. And Jesus laid out righteousness to a very high standard when he said "You have heard it said... but I say".

Let's talk about how we believe sin can be overcome, and even how proper it is to have this as a primary goal. Perhaps Jesus wants us to overcome sin by choosing to love instead?
It's probably because I've known a lot of people in the evangelical world who don't believe in obeying the Lord's commands- they say things like, "I'm saved by faith so works are not important...and...Jesus obeyed for me so I don't have to obey." So when I hear your statement about overcoming sin by "simply loving" the first thought I have is that you are saying that if I love others, it doesn't matter if I an disobedient and sin. I know you're probably not saying that we can sin if we love, but depending on whom we're talking to, it can be helpful to flesh out our thoughts a little more. Does that make sense?
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Bootstrap »

betterpromises2 wrote:It's probably because I've known a lot of people in the evangelical world who don't believe in obeying the Lord's commands- they say things like, "I'm saved by faith so works are not important...and...Jesus obeyed for me so I don't have to obey." So when I hear your statement about overcoming sin by "simply loving" the first thought I have is that you are saying that if I love others, it doesn't matter if I an disobedient and sin.
You are addressing this to Josh, but I'd like to throw in some thoughts.

Obedience and holiness are important. If you truly love God, you will seek to be holy. Many kinds of sin also get in the way of loving your neighbor. If Jesus said these are the two most important commandments, taking that seriously is important if we want to be obedient.
betterpromises2 wrote:I know you're probably not saying that we can sin if we love, but depending on whom we're talking to, it can be helpful to flesh out our thoughts a little more. Does that make sense?
I think that's important. And I think this thread is a good place to do that. You've pointed out one danger: not taking love for God and neighbor seriously, thinking that some vague feeling is all we need to assure ourselves that we are loving, and not seeking obedience or holiness.

There's another danger: being obedient to the wrong things. Some people are quite obedient to a dead religion that does not focus on the things Jesus told us are central. Love for God and neighbor are at the heart of true obedience. Unfortunately, some Christians get skeptical when you start talking about love. When we have that reaction, we should ask why. I remember talking to an extreme Calvinist who told me, "anyone can love, but not everyone has the right theology". I wasn't all that thrilled with his theology (we were discussing limited atonement, the doctrine that made it hard for him to be one with other Christians who did not believe in it). But more importantly, I don't think "anyone can love", most of us are much worse at it than we think, and we need God's grace and guidance every day to grow in love. And being obedient is all about walking as Jesus walked, in love, putting love for God and brother and neighbor at the heart of everything.
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cmbl
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by cmbl »

betterpromises2 wrote: It's probably because I've known a lot of people in the evangelical world who don't believe in obeying the Lord's commands- they say things like...Jesus obeyed for me so I don't have to obey."
This context was the context in which hearing that sin could meaningfully be overcome was good news to me.
So when I hear your statement about overcoming sin by "simply loving" the first thought I have is that you are saying that if I love others, it doesn't matter if I an disobedient and sin. I know you're probably not saying that we can sin if we love, but depending on whom we're talking to, it can be helpful to flesh out our thoughts a little more. Does that make sense?
Overcoming sin by simply loving is a statement that I may agree with. But it depends on who is saying it, how they live, and how they're saying I should live. (I say that neutrally, not to cast aspersions on Josh or Bootstrap.)
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Josh
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Josh »

The Bible is pretty clear that love is central to being a Christian and is not optional.

Of course, love isn't easy. It means embracing submission, accomodating weaker brethren, and dealing with people who don't deserve love. But that's how God makes us more Christlike.
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Re: Overcoming sin

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Josh wrote:The Bible is pretty clear that love is central to being a Christian and is not optional.

Of course, love isn't easy. It means embracing submission, accommodating weaker brethren, and dealing with people who don't deserve love. But that's how God makes us more Christlike.
And I don't think you would accept love as an excuse for sin, or "just love" as a substitute for careful attention to biblical teaching. I think that's what some people are worried about.
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:The Bible is pretty clear that love is central to being a Christian and is not optional.

Of course, love isn't easy. It means embracing submission, accommodating weaker brethren, and dealing with people who don't deserve love. But that's how God makes us more Christlike.
And I don't think you would accept love as an excuse for sin, or "just love" as a substitute for careful attention to biblical teaching. I think that's what some people are worried about.
Indeed, sin is often engaging in a lack of love for God or for my fellow man.
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Bootstrap »

Here's one verse that suggests Josh is right here:
1 John 2:9-11 wrote:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
If you truly love your brother, there is no cause for stumbling. If you hate your brother, the darkness blinds your eyes and you continue to stumble.
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Re: Overcoming sin

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:The Bible is pretty clear that love is central to being a Christian and is not optional.

Of course, love isn't easy. It means embracing submission, accomodating weaker brethren, and dealing with people who don't deserve love. But that's how God makes us more Christlike.
Is there anyone who doesn't deserve love ? If we are to love as God loves, love is not something a person deserves or doesn't deserve, right ? John 3:16
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
Perhaps my forum participation is a good place to check out how well I measure up to the bible's definition of love seen above.

- do I lose patience with someone in how they post or what they frequently post about ?
- are my posts kind in their wording ?
- do I become irritated when others don't respond to posts in the way I think they should ?
- do my posts reflect some boasting of my faith group or accomplishments or ---- ?
- do I ever get rude when responding to others ?
- do I let things get to me on what is posted that I disagree with and become irritated with someone ?
- do I bring up past hurts when I feel I was wronged ?
- am I happy when something bad happens to someone's whose actions I really don't approve of ?
- am I happy when truth wins out ?
- do I lose hope with someone and quit trying to reconcile ?
- do I have faith that it is possible to love anyone ?
- is there any situation I bail out on and don't endure until love reigns ?

Scripture says to love our enemies and do good to those who treat us bad. When someone slams me, do I return to them a compliment ? Do I try to make peace with everyone over anything ?

So, I agree that love isn't easy and I would say is impossible as my fleshly nature does not and cannot manufacture this type of love. What makes it possible is submission and reliance on the Spirit's enabling power. By just asking myself these questions I see I have still much to learn in how to practise biblical love. If I took the time to consider all these before I made a post, I'm sure some of my posts would not have been posted and others would have had to be altered.
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