Doing Penance

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote: Valerie seems to be supporting Eastern Orthodoxy, although to my knowledge she is not Eastern Orthodox nor attends at one. (Please correct me if I am wrong). Eastern Orthodoxy is not Anabaptism, and Pentecostalism is not Anabaptism either.
Correct- we are presently attending a 'non-denomination' church as a safe place- we are suffering from overexposure to too many branches of Christianity where we find good things in all yet all of them are opposed to one another (well Orthodox at least will say each denomination has a 'slice of the pie' which makes sense to me). I doubt we will return to Pentecost even though I recognize they do have a lot of faith, gifts of the Spirit and I witnessed things that seemed like the early Church in many ways- (tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, miracles, healings)- the Charismatic movement seems to embrace a group of people, an Apostolic Movement & Prophetic Movement, etc- that we were not comfortable with- since we continually pray for discernment, our spirits were troubled and we had to leave. Plus I had embraced some of Anabaptism which is polar opposite of their practices-

I only entered this topic because as I read a section in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs- there was a reference to Church writers who eluded to this- so it goes waaaaay back in Church history- maybe not exactly the way Catholics practice but there is at least references to it under the section of 'church discipline'
Not to bunny trail but to clarify since you were not sure Josh
Just a caution: Some of these "non-denominational" are the most dangerous churches around, due to the lack of any effective oversight of their leaders.

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Josh »

Parkside has 3 locations. I would consider it a denomination.

Their attendance is around 5,000 (as far as I can tell), plus attendance at the regional campuses. (Interesting how there is a "main" campus, much like Rome or Constantinople, and then "regional" campuses in Green and near Mentor.) My own denomination is around 25,000 people, so Parkside has already reached 20% of our size.

Some "non-denominational" churches like Hillsong (which is actually part of a denomination if you consider the Assemblies of God a denomination, which I do), have attendance that is far greater than my own church's across all our hundreds of congregations. I think it is a farce to call them "non-denominational".

If anything, the term "non-denominational" is simply another name for a denomination, much akin to terms like "church of Christ" or "church of God".
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Valerie
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote: Valerie seems to be supporting Eastern Orthodoxy, although to my knowledge she is not Eastern Orthodox nor attends at one. (Please correct me if I am wrong). Eastern Orthodoxy is not Anabaptism, and Pentecostalism is not Anabaptism either.
Correct- we are presently attending a 'non-denomination' church as a safe place- we are suffering from overexposure to too many branches of Christianity where we find good things in all yet all of them are opposed to one another (well Orthodox at least will say each denomination has a 'slice of the pie' which makes sense to me). I doubt we will return to Pentecost even though I recognize they do have a lot of faith, gifts of the Spirit and I witnessed things that seemed like the early Church in many ways- (tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, miracles, healings)- the Charismatic movement seems to embrace a group of people, an Apostolic Movement & Prophetic Movement, etc- that we were not comfortable with- since we continually pray for discernment, our spirits were troubled and we had to leave. Plus I had embraced some of Anabaptism which is polar opposite of their practices-

I only entered this topic because as I read a section in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs- there was a reference to Church writers who eluded to this- so it goes waaaaay back in Church history- maybe not exactly the way Catholics practice but there is at least references to it under the section of 'church discipline'
Not to bunny trail but to clarify since you were not sure Josh
Just a caution: Some of these "non-denominational" are the most dangerous churches around, due to the lack of any effective oversight of their leaders.

J.M.
Thank you, I appreciate your word of caution- Pastor Begg's teaching is very solid & sound- and he does not stray away from the word & when he gives opinions, he makes it clear they are his own opinions- I think, being from Scotland, that he grew up Presbyterian but left that denomination for many reasons- the Church in the Cleveland area sought him out and so he relocated to here from Scotland- the Presbyterian Church is dividing like many, but I know one thing- Pastor Begg doesn't believe in infant baptism that the Presbyterian Church practices- so he has a calling as a Pastor, he is faithful to that calling but doesn't ascribe to many man made ordinances or rituals (at least he believes many are man made)
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Heirbyadoption »

The only downside to Alistair is his Calvinism. Otherwise, I could listen to his Highland brogue all day long.
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Josh
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Josh »

Not sure how someone who thinks a Christian can shoot people has "sound doctrine" or "teaches the word".

I am also not a fan of people who "appreciate" Mennonites yet don't end up choosing to obey and follow Jesus. I don't think loving your enemies is optional. I don't think anything Jesus said is optional.
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RZehr
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote:Not sure how someone who thinks a Christian can shoot people has "sound doctrine" or "teaches the word".

I am also not a fan of people who "appreciate" Mennonites yet don't end up choosing to obey and follow Jesus. I don't think loving your enemies is optional. I don't think anything Jesus said is optional.
I think you have a good point. Its like the rich young ruler who appreciated Jesus, but wouldn't commit.
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MaxPC
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by MaxPC »

Loving your enemies enough to live among them and risk martyrdom for the sake of sharing the love of God is on my heart today. Missionaries of all Christian denominations and fellowships who walk into that kind of danger daily for the love of Christ.

I think about the Christians who dodge bullets and rockets to get to the wounded in war zones.

In those times and places, I don't see theological squabbles taking place. I don't see the Christian asking if the wounded person has the right belief in God. Instead I see in Christ in action.
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Josh
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:In those times and places, I don't see theological squabbles taking place. I don't see the Christian asking if the wounded person has the right belief in God. Instead I see in Christ in action.
My acquaintances who have knowledge of what happens in the Congo tell me the exact opposite. There is complete division between 7th Day Adventists and Catholics in Congo.

The Mennonites in Congo have done a good job of maintaining unity amongst themselves, but they don't view Catholics in Congo as having the right belief at all and are concerned for their souls.
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Valerie
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:Not sure how someone who thinks a Christian can shoot people has "sound doctrine" or "teaches the word".

I am also not a fan of people who "appreciate" Mennonites yet don't end up choosing to obey and follow Jesus. I don't think loving your enemies is optional. I don't think anything Jesus said is optional.
Not everyone believes Mennonites are infallible about their interpretations- doesn't make them right or wrong, but if they agreed with their interpretations, they would become Mennonites- he is probably like most denominations who believe Jesus words about loving your enemies and turning the other cheek, as in context of personal relationships (I don't know, I never hear him talk politics or war or any such thing in 15 years of listening to him)- most pastors I have spoken with, believe this to be the case- so it's not that they are 'disobedient' like the rich young ruler (well, reluctant) but happen to disagree- Jesus didn't tell the Centurian to quit being a solider, instead He was quite taken by his faith and used the soldier as an example. And Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and we don't read where he was told to quit being a Centurian- I'm just saying (and you know there are debates about this) that many people don't read these soldiers as being wrong for being soldiers, either by Jesus or His Apostles when face to face with them in Scripture- it's simply a difference of understanding of interpretations- in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs- there are early church quotes about Christian soldiers 'attire' ie. about their shoes when in military). So just saying not everyone agrees - I honestly don't know, but I do know that loving your enemies includes the way we talk about other Christians and the attitudes we convey about them- I feel like you have a problem with him drawing a large congregation but His best Sunday isn't as large as the crowds Jesus would draw- when Jesus uses someone, there may be many who want to hear-
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Josh
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Re: Doing Penance

Post by Josh »

"Simply a different interpretation" doesn't excuse us from obeying Jesus. You can't love your enemy whilst thrusting a sword into him and killing him.

As far as Parkside goes, I have little use for a congregation that teaches once saved always saved, thinks you are predestined to heaven or hell, and doesn't preach holiness or obedience to Bible commands like the veiling.
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